Electric power for sinks

[brother]

Ok, I cannot think of an NEC violation, (maybe its a Department of Health issue) or just a BAD design/engineering in my opinion to say the least. I have a friend that let me know about a situation where they power went out on the sinks in the bathroom at a public place and no one could wash their hands.

Ive seen these automatic sinks before and even when they had alot of them installed (at malls, resturants etc..) they always had the 1 manual sink in so that all the water would not be dependent on electric power.

Is there a violation here from the NEC that Im not aware of?? In any case it just seems like common sense to me as far as designing. Please site code.

 

[Mgraw]

All the automatic units I have seen are battery operated. I would think the need for a manual faucet would be a plumbing issue.

 

[charlie b]

It's not an NEC issue. If anything, it is a plumbing design issue. All I know is that in recent projects, the power to automatic bathroom fixtures was all on the normal branch. A single transformer, generally located above the entrance door to each bathroom, supplied all the fixtures in the room. So if that transformer were to fail, none of the fixtures would operate. In facilities with automatic fixtures, none had a "backup" manual fixture.

 

[brother]

It's not an NEC issue. If anything, it is a plumbing design issue. All I know is that in recent projects, the power to automatic bathroom fixtures was all on the normal branch. A single transformer, generally located above the entrance door to each bathroom, supplied all the fixtures in the room. So if that transformer were to fail, none of the fixtures would operate. In facilities with automatic fixtures, none had a "backup" manual fixture.

Thats odd, most of the new projects Ive seen they had at least one manual fixture. I think some things should not be improve upon.

 

[Mgraw]

Could be a local plumbing issue. Two years ago I was working on a three story medical office building (new construction) and all public restrooms had all automatic fixtures, all battery operated. Since then I've worked on two retail store remodels and a national chain store in a strip mall where battery operated auto fixtures were installed.

 

[ivsenroute]

I cannot find a requirement for at least one manual faucet in:

The Building Code
The Plumbing Code
The ADA Code (ANSI 117.1 2003)

Wonder if this should be a change for the IPC in the future?

 

[brother]

I cannot find a requirement for at least one manual faucet in:

The Building Code
The Plumbing Code
The ADA Code (ANSI 117.1 2003)

Wonder if this should be a change for the IPC in the future?

I feel it should be, at least for 'certain' areas. My friend tells me this incident happen in a hospital public restroom of all places. Talk about embarrassment, he says the visitors in the restroom at the time was not happy when they found out they couldn't wash their hands when the power on the faucets were out after using the toliets.

Maybe the code can read something like this, 'hospitals, medical providing facilities, resturants, and food providing facilities shall have at least 1 manually operated water faucet that is not dependent only on an electrical power source to operate to ensure there is a means to wash/sanitize persons hands in case of power loss to the faucets.
Unless someone can have some better wording please give. I always thought this was a common sense design issue, especially in a hospital or resturant but apparently not.

 

[nakulak]

I guess they should require a sign that says something to the effect: In emergency use toilet to wash hands.

 

[brother]

I guess they should require a sign that says something to the effect: In emergency use toilet to wash hands.

funny!!!!!

 

[mcclary's electrical]

I guess they should require a sign that says something to the effect: In emergency use toilet to wash hands.

:grin::grin::grin:

 

[charlie b]

I shouldn't try to participate on weekends. Not only do I not have a code book at home, I also don't have copies of recent project drawings at home.

All I know is that in recent projects, the power to automatic bathroom fixtures was all on the normal branch.

Not true, as it turns out. They are on the Optional Standby Branch. Our lead plumbing engineer tells me that for new buildings, that is the norm, and for renovations, the norm is to use battery powered automatic plumbing fixtures.

In facilities with automatic fixtures, none had a "backup" manual fixture.

That part I did get right.

 

[nakulak]

did they have signs telling people what to do in an emergency if the sinks failed ?

 

[charlie b]

If there were a true emergency, they have no buisness being in the building. If there were simply a loss of utility power, then the bathroom fixtures would have power, via the OSB branch.

 

[brother]

If there were a true emergency, they have no buisness being in the building. If there were simply a loss of utility power, then the bathroom fixtures would have power, via the OSB branch.

Point well taken, looks like someone at the 'forethought' to be sure the sinks work when they loose their normal power. Not sure what the extra cost was to wire them to OSB, but at least they can still 'wash their hands'. I think 1 manual faucet and rest on automatic would keep things simple and dependable.

So what did you think of my potential code wording Charlie??