GFCI in Generator

[ceb58]

OK, I think I am 99.9% right on this but would like to see if I have missed something. This is a friendly disagreement between my boss and my self.
Generators installed out doors. The gen. sets came with a factory installed GFCI recp. for the block heater and battery charger. The box and GFCI are installed inside the gen. housing. Now after a few year the GFCI's are going bad, Will not test with the button, trip out even with no load etc.. He says that we should replace with a standard recp. because there is something in code ( cant find it just now) that allows us to do that because the gen. sets are under supervised control. I say no. My argument to him is 1 code doesn't allow for this. 2 even if it is under supervised control that doesn't mean just because you have a key to the housing you couldn't get a hit if the heater shorted out and didn't trip the breaker. 3 the factory didn't install the "best" grade GFCI recp. to begin with so its time for them to fail.
I am trying to make him see that we should replace them with the GFCIs that are WP and of a commercial grade or just install GFCI breakers on the line that feeds the recp. That way we know they are not wet from blowing rain or dust and dirt. And they are not subject to the vibration when the gen.sets are running. Am I wrong?

 

[Hendrix]

IMHO you are right

 

[raider1]

If the GFCI receptacle is part of the generator assembly then IMHO, 110.3(B) would require that you replace it with what was there before.

Chris

 

[charlie b]

He says that we should replace with a standard recp. because there is something in code ( cant find it just now) that allows us to do that because the gen. sets are under supervised control.

You can't find it, because it is not there. 210.8 gives a couple exceptions that deal with supervised locations. But none apply to this installation.

You give good reasons that it would be better to install GFCI. But I gather that your argument is about what the code requires, not what would be the better idea. I agree with you. I have two reasons to suggest, but neither may prove defensible. Here goes anyway:

First possible argument: The generator and everything associated with it counts as being "outdoors," even though it is inside an enclosure of its own. 210.8 requires GFCI for outdoor receptacles. If your boss can show that the enclosure is a NEMA weatherproof type, I would have to withdraw this reason.

Second possible argument: This equipment, generator, heater, receptacle, enclosure, and all came as a packaged unit. The manufacturer owns all of it. The NEC does not apply to any of it (meaning any of the pieces and parts that comprise the generator system). If you replace like-for-like, you do not alter the manufacturer's listing. If you replace with unlike, the listing is voided.

 

[augie47]

Even if it were to meet some type of exception, were someone working on or near the generator and needed power for a hand tool I wonder where they would find to plug the tool
I use the same reasoning for receptacles for any outdoor equipment/appliance.

 

[JES2727]

The generator is in a rainproof enclosure. The inside of the enclosure is a dry location. I install standard receps inside gen enclosures because I've had the GFI's trip and then the battery dies and the generator doesn't start during the next power outage. And the customer gets upset.
I also use FMC inside the enclosure rather than sealtite. I've never failed an inspection for this.

 

[shockin]

I had a similar issue a few months ago and I agree with your assessment. However the generator rep (kohler) didn't agree. The generator rep got called out on a service call for a generator we had wired up. The block heater / charger had a "standard" receptacle so we installed a gfci breaker in the house. The breaker tripped and when the owner need his generator it wouldn't start becuase it was too cold and the battery was too weak. The rep told the homeowner that WE had wired it wrong and this outlet should not be on a GFCI. Long story short - owner didn't want to pay his bill for what the "expert" said was a faulty installation.

 

[augie47]

The generator is in a rainproof enclosure. The inside of the enclosure is a dry location. I install standard receps inside gen enclosures because I've had the GFI's trip and then the battery dies and the generator doesn't start during the next power outage. And the customer gets upset.
I also use FMC inside the enclosure rather than sealtite. I've never failed an inspection for this.

I don't see "wet" and "dry" in 210.8
Is it outdoors ?

 

[ceb58]

I don't see "wet" and "dry" in 210.8
Is it outdoors ?

Thank you. The enclosure may be rainproof but that puddle of water I am standing in while leaning on the enclosure to plug a drop light or something else in is not

 

[Cold Fusion]

I don't see "wet" and "dry" in 210.8
Is it outdoors ?

No, it is in an enclosure. Or, it is in a structure.

I don't know where one draws the line on how big the enclosure has to be before the receptacle is no longer considered outside:
A house is likely big enough.
My 16' X 16' cabin is probably big enough.
My gen and battery shelter (8' x 4' x 8') high at the cabin is probably big enough

A receptacle in an 8" x 12" x 6" Nema 3R box with a hinged cover is likely considered outside - or is it. What would you be basing your opinion on?

As jes and shock said, if one needs the gen to start, then gfi's on the battery charger, oil sump heater, and block heaters are not a good idea.

cf

 

[ceb58]

OK I think now that .1% is going to bite me and or us. 210.8 B excpt. 2 to (4). After reading it and looking at 590.6 B 2 I think we may be in this category. The circ. that feeds the recp. are dedicated. They originate in the main service panel which is grounded via the grounding system for communication towers. Which is a tested system. The operation and/or the need for these generators to operate are part of a legally requried system. So bottom line is since these gen. are needed and a tripped GFCI would cause the charger not to work and/or not keep the diesel units warm in cold weather so they dont go into fault for over-crank. That we can replace the GFCIs with regular recp. and still be code compliant.

 

[tom baker]

If the GFCI trips from a faulty block heater, what is the current to ground? 15-30-100 mA? The GFCI is doing its job.

 

[augie47]

what if ::: (a) someone turns off the breaker , (b) the oil heater shorts or opens, (c) a cell shorts in the battery, (d) the battery goes dry, etc.
Any of these can cause a failure. They can be monitored, and the generator test cycled.
Should we treat it like a fire pump and oversize the breaker considerably ?
I can't see ignoring the safety aspects of the GFCI because of possible failure on items that can be monitored.

 

[Cold Fusion]

[quote =tomBaker]If the GFCI trips from a faulty block heater, what is the current to ground? 15-30-100 mA? The GFCI is doing its job. [/quote]

what if ::: (a) someone turns off the breaker , (b) the oil heater shorts or opens, (c) a cell shorts in the battery, (d) the battery goes dry, etc.
Any of these can cause a failure. They can be monitored, and the generator test cycled.
Should we treat it like a fire pump and oversize the breaker considerably ?
I can't see ignoring the safety aspects of the GFCI because of possible failure on items that can be monitored.

Gus -
You and Tom are absolutely correct concerning the design issues. But that wasn't the OPs question. The question was about the code issues.

Ceb thinks that he would like a gfci receptacle in the vicinity of the gen to plug in his drop light. Great put one in - doesn't have to be part of the gen accessories circuits.

Need alarms, monitoring, and testing on the gen - great, do it.

In general - I'm in favor of AHJ's staying out of design issues. We are all aware of 90.1.A, B, C

cf

 

[ceb58]

what if ::: (a) someone turns off the breaker , (b) the oil heater shorts or opens, (c) a cell shorts in the battery, (d) the battery goes dry, etc.
Any of these can cause a failure. They can be monitored, and the generator test cycled.
Should we treat it like a fire pump and oversize the breaker considerably ?
I can't see ignoring the safety aspects of the GFCI because of possible failure on items that can be monitored.

I totally agree with the safety aspect of having GFCI protection. What I was looking for was a code compliant reason the GFCI could be replaced with a regular recp. and I think I found it in 210.8 B excpt. 2 to (4).

 

[hurk27]

I don't see exception to 210.8(A) that would allow a receptacle outdoors to not be GFCI protected, except ice/snow melting equipment.

for the most part we use Generac systems, and they all have a convenience outlet accessible from the outside of the generator cabinet and are fed by the generator only, and it is a 20 amp GFCI, but any accessory's are all hard wired, the automatic battery maintainer is a 120-240 volt unit and it gets wired in the transfer switch to the load side so both the generator and the utility can supply it, the battery warmer is wired to the utility sense circuit (240 volts) and is also hard wired, if you order a oil heater it too is set up to be hard wired via a circuit from the utility side of the ATS. I think the reason they made these accessory's hard wired was to stop the very problems from feeding them from a GFCI, they even supply buss-man fuse blocks with fuses to mount in the transfer switch to protect these devices and or circuits.

I also think 210.63 should have covered other types of equipment like generators. Why heating and air guy get all the fun:roll:

 

[macmikeman]

Here is a Mactake on it and not backed up with code..... If you "feel" that a gfi would be a good thing to install for safety sake, it most very likely is a good thing to install for safety sake. Since the issue is over one receptacle outlet, and not a whole trac development string of gfi outlets, the cost to upgrade to the gfi is about what one trip to McDonalds for lunch would be. I would put the gfi receptacle outlet in and be done with it, even if I had a boss. If he gets upset, skip lunch one day and donate......:grin:

 

[ZCBee]

If you replace like-for-like, you do not alter the manufacturer's listing. If you replace with unlike, the listing is voided.

That's how we handle OEM equipment in our maintenance department, a R&R part, section, system, etc. must be of equal or better quality than the original part being replaced. I would purchase a higher quality GFCI and be done with it. Just MHO.