"Kitchen" and GFI

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Keri_WW

Keri_WW

Senior Member
Per '08 NEC, a lounge, break room, etc. is now considered a "kitchen" if it has a sink and permanent cooking (aka a mounted in place microwave), thus requiring GFI receptacles. Is this everyone else's interpretation?
 
It's probably not "everyone else's interpretation," but it is mine. It's been that way in Washington State for quite a while. In fact, here it would count as a "kitchen," even without the microwave, if it has a place to wash your dishes.
 
You said GFI receptacle, I will assume GFCI, minor I know but major price difference between what a GFCI receptacle verses wha a GFI breaker would be.

Don't forget to have it tamper proof as well, also new in 08'.
 
I will agree that it is a kitchen.

Now my question, are you asking if you have to upgrade it because it now meets the definition of a kitchen or is this a new install?
 
It's a new install. Just want to make sure I design it correctly. Cadpoint - tamper resistant too? Where did you see that?

Thanks!
Keri :grin::grin:

Edit: 406.11 for tamper-resistant receptacles. Doesn't affect me since I am not working on residential. Thanks for the heads up.
 
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As a follow up question, what would you do in the case where you have a larger room, where it is actually labeled as three separate rooms (the "kitchen" portion only takes up half the space square footage-wise)? Would you still make all receptacles GFCI?
 
Keri_WW said:
As a follow up question, what would you do in the case where you have a larger room, where it is actually labeled as three separate rooms (the "kitchen" portion only takes up half the space square footage-wise)? Would you still make all receptacles GFCI?
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Without looking up building code rules, I would say whichever part of the room is not the same kind of flooring as the "kitchen" is a separate room...most likely the dining room, so you can still have those receptacles on your SABC. What's the other third of the room?
 
Does anybody agree with me that this interpretation of a break room being a kitchen is a little much, and goes way beyond the intent of the code? I don't have a problem with designing for GFCIs in a break room or lounge, it's not any extra effort on my part, but imo the code intent is most likely for actual kitchens, i.e. food prep areas with floor drains that are likely to be mopped nightly or sprayed down. What's the purpose of a GFCI nowhere near a sink in a staff lounge or break room? Just sayin.

Just thought I'd give my two cents, although so far seems like everyone disagrees with my viewpoint ;)

EDIT: Btw I should clarify that of course we still need to provide GFCI for the microwave and toaster and what not over by the sink, I'm strictly speaking of requiring GFCIs for the general purpose receptacles in the room.
 
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DetroitEE said:
Does anybody agree with me that this interpretation of a break room being a kitchen is a little much, and goes way beyond the intent of the code? I don't have a problem with designing for GFCIs in a break room or lounge, it's not any extra effort on my part, but imo the code intent is most likely for actual kitchens, i.e. food prep areas with floor drains that are likely to be mopped nightly or sprayed down. What's the purpose of a GFCI nowhere near a sink in a staff lounge or break room? Just sayin.

Just thought I'd give my two cents, although so far seems like everyone disagrees with my viewpoint ;)

EDIT: Btw I should clarify that of course we still need to provide GFCI for the microwave and toaster and what not over by the sink, I'm strictly speaking of requiring GFCIs for the general purpose receptacles in the room.
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Not really. Many people spend just as much if not more time in the office as they do at home (subtract sleep time) I get to the office at 6:45 stay until 4:30, so around 10 hours. Go home take my son to baseball, go bowling, whatever, get home around 7 in bed by 11, only 4 hours.
 
cowboyjwc said:
Not really. Many people spend just as much if not more time in the office as they do at home (subtract sleep time) I get to the office at 6:45 stay until 4:30, so around 10 hours. Go home take my son to baseball, go bowling, whatever, get home around 7 in bed by 11, only 4 hours.
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I'm not quite following why that means that general purpose receptacles in a staff lounge/break room greater than 6 ft. from a sink should require GFCI protection.

EDIT: Ah I see, I think you were only addressing why it could be considered a kitchen, not so much the GFCI aspect. Sorry...long day.
 
cadpoint said:
You said GFI receptacle, I will assume GFCI, minor I know but major price difference between what a GFCI receptacle verses wha a GFI breaker would be.

Don't forget to have it tamper proof as well, also new in 08'.
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Not all jurisdictions are enforcing the 08' TR receptacle requirement. Our State has the requirement, but if you do work in an area that does their own electrical inspections, then you will find that they have not accepted the 08' TR requirement.
 
DetroitEE said:
I'm not quite following why that means that general purpose receptacles in a staff lounge/break room greater than 6 ft. from a sink should require GFCI protection.

EDIT: Ah I see, I think you were only addressing why it could be considered a kitchen, not so much the GFCI aspect. Sorry...long day.
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But you did get it, then the GFCI thing just kind of goes along with that.:D
 
resistance said:
Not all jurisdictions are enforcing the 08' TR receptacle requirement. Our State has the requirement, but if you do work in an area that does their own electrical inspections, then you will find that they have not accepted the 08' TR requirement.
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I thought TR was for Dwelling Units, 406.11.
 
1793 said:
I thought TR was for Dwelling Units, 406.11.
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My understanding is TR (Tamperproof) is also required for some commercial. Example of some: Childcare center, Children's hospital. Outside of that, they "may not" require them--depends on the jurisdiction. A city here has the exact rule I stated above. They do not require them in residential or commercial--unless the commercial building is as described in "Example."
 
resistance said:
My understanding is TR (Tamperproof) is also required for some commercial. Example of some: Childcare center, Children's hospital. Outside of that, they "may not" require them--depends on the jurisdiction. A city here has the exact rule I stated above. They do not require them in residential or commercial--unless the commercial building is as described in "Example."
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Is that an NEC issue or Building code?
 
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