Condenser not on a dedicated circuit

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Im seeing this alot where an installer taps into the air handler circuit with a 10/2 to send power to the outdoor condenser on an HVAC install. Other than being an NEC violation are there any real hazards with doing this? Im trying to think of some and none come to mind. I need more ammo to go to the owners with other than "well the NEC says you cant do that". I tell them about the NEC and what it will cost to correct it only to get hit with "well than why has it been working for 10 years that way if its wrong"?
 
Second question, what about those #10 jumpers from the 2 pole 60 amp breaker to the 2 pole 30 amp breaker, is there a correct way to tap off the branch circuit wire thats landed on the 2 pole 60 amp breaker other than what they have done?
 
GG said:
Im seeing this alot where an installer taps into the air handler circuit with a 10/2 to send power to the outdoor condenser on an HVAC install. Other than being an NEC violation are there any real hazards with doing this? Im trying to think of some and none come to mind. I need more ammo to go to the owners with other than "well the NEC says you cant do that". I tell them about the NEC and what it will cost to correct it only to get hit with "well than why has it been working for 10 years that way if its wrong"?
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The outside condenser must be protected at it's name plate maximum breaker size. I am not sure about the taps.
Are they an internal part of the unit?
 
Buck Parrish said:
The outside condenser must be protected at it's name plate maximum breaker size. I am not sure about the taps.
Are they an internal part of the unit?
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The air handler comes with a 2 pole 60 and a 2 pole 30 amp breker installed. The unit has 3-5 kw heat strips. Normally I will run a 6/2 romex and a 10/2 romex to feed the 2 breakers. What HVAC companies will sometimes do is what you see in my pics. They run a #4 wire and land it on the 2 pole 60 and then use 2 #10 jumper wires and go breaker to breaker. I know the breakers are not listed to have 2 wires under each termianl as they are doing with the 2 pole 60. If they used a split bolt and tapped the #4 wire and then ran a wire to each of the 2 pole breakers Im pretty sure the NEC tap rules forbid this as well.
 
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Ken9876 said:
Is that just THHN with no conduit feeding the unit?
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Yes, unfortunatley it is. There is 50' running through the attic thats not in conduit. For some reason they shoved a PVC 90 into the air handler and sleaved the wires in that so they obviously knew the wires should have been in some type of conduit.
 
Ignoring the obvious exposed THHN violation, you are almost guaranteed to have a 110.3(B) violation with two wires under one lug. The 50 ft is obviously a violation of the tap rules, but shorter length might meet 240.21 rules. Proper OCP at the condenser disconnect could provide that proper protection.
If they sized the feeder large enough and provided proper termination devices and stayed within applicable tap rules (25 ft normally) they might
make such an install meet NEC, otherwise not.
I occasionally see this also and have yet to see one installed to Code.
 
Are these 60A and 30A breakers part of the HVAC appliance? Many HVAC air handlers have a lug kit you install if you want to feed that unit with one large circuit instead of two smaller ones. I would expect violations in how the wires are connected to the breakers to be more of a violation of manufacturers instructions than anything else. You won't know how they have listed the thing to be connected, but what is in the instructions should be the allowed methods.

Normally, you wouldn't have any free ampacity to tap off these 60A and 30A breakers to connect the outside airhandler. But if there is some interlock (doubt it), it may be possible. However, there is still a probable tap issue if you're effectively feeding the outside unit with a #10 tap off a #4 80A feeder. Unless of course, the compressor unit is going through the 30A breaker instead of around it.
 
LarryFine said:
I see absolutely nothing in that picture that complies with the NEC. :mad:

This is a text-book example of how not to do this work. Unbelievable. :roll:
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I agree with Larry this is completely wrong and dangerous. As for explaining that to the customer that can be difficult I run into that problem all the time sometimes they don't have the finances to do it or they think that you are scamming them . Give them the information on the things that are wrong which is everything and let them research that online if they want to or they can choose to ignore it that's there choice.
 
LarryFine said:
I see absolutely nothing in that picture that complies with the NEC. :mad:

This is a text-book example of how not to do this work. Unbelievable. :roll:
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Im sure they were the "lowest bidder". Around here thats all that seems to matter, the price. Im sure the owners never looked at the final install and just went by price. Its 20' back in an unlighted attic so Im sure other than the original installers Im the only one to have seen it. Now I get to try and explain to the owner why something that has worked for 10 years now needs to be cleaned up.
 
ichimo23 said:
What brought you into the attic? Was it service/trouble shooting, or did you stumble upon this atrocity while working on another project?
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It was a no heat call. The condenser units contactor was locked in the closed position and this caused the evaporator coil to ice over. I melted the ice on the coil and got the heat working. I told the owner that they need to install the wire properly.
 
If they called the HVAC Tech. would they have left it. ? ! ;)

Don't forgot your new labeling for multiply power in the equipment ...
 
What they really need is a 6-space panel, and to make sure that feeder is large enough, and in a proper raceway.
 
LarryFine said:
Some of the worst service changes I've seen were part of an HVAC install "package." :mad:
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Agreed. I have yet to see a plumber, oil burner serviceman, or HVAC guy do decent electrical work as part of the installation of their equipment. Usually they are smart enough to sub the work out to an EC but the work I have seen them do ranges between bad and abominable. :roll:
 
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