Why would anyone do this

[r_merc]

Went on a trouble shooting call and found this fine example of workman like installation. I have seen this type of install in the counties south of me. Here where I do most of my work this install would be written up for not using the proper connectors for romex cable. So are they just getting away with it or am I reading into the code.
Rick

 

[gndrod]

Went on a trouble shooting call and found this fine example of workman like installation. I have seen this type of install in the counties south of me. Here where I do most of my work this install would be written up for not using the proper connectors for romex cable. So are they just getting away with it or am I reading into the code.
Rick

Hi Rick, Without seeing the top of the box, that could be a valid installation using a conduit nipple not longer than 24". Wire/cable fill in the conduit would be questionable. rbj

 

[r_merc]

I know this contractor all it is is a 2" PVC TA with a bushing on it and stapled 18" away. Seen his work more than once. Always makes me wonder why he gets to do it that way. Also conduit nipples cannot be used in the way you discribe. It is true that Romex can be sleeved if the pipe is less than 10'. The Pipe has to be completely exposed and the cables stapled within 12" of exiting the pipe. To me it seems like and excuse not to use something like an Arlington NM 94 or 95, Standard romex connector or even a tomic connector.

 

[buck33k]

In the photo it looks like a flush mounted panel to me. Could be a violation of 312.5(C).

 

[ItsHot]

Reminds me of an external/outside panel install. Where all your conductors are passed through one ore two 2 inch nipples! Where is 220/221 with his 2 inch snap-in bishins' when you need him?

 

[gndrod]

I know this contractor all it is is a 2" PVC TA with a bushing on it and stapled 18" away. Seen his work more than once. Always makes me wonder why he gets to do it that way. Also conduit nipples cannot be used in the way you discribe. It is true that Romex can be sleeved if the pipe is less than 10'. The Pipe has to be completely exposed and the cables stapled within 12" of exiting the pipe. To me it seems like and excuse not to use something like an Arlington NM 94 or 95, Standard romex connector or even a tomic connector.

I agree, this resi MLO does not work well in either case of exiting the enclosure. It will only take one CB hangup to re-train that installer on multiple bundling such as the example shown. Believe me, rewiring a Branch Circuit melt-down that takes out a lot of other cables around it is no fun unless you are the contractor getting paid for the repair job.

Rick, thanks for the input. Would you give an article reference to conduit nipples not permitted? tx rbj

 

[iwire]

Went on a trouble shooting call and found this fine example of workman like installation. I have seen this type of install in the counties south of me. Here where I do most of my work this install would be written up for not using the proper connectors for romex cable. So are they just getting away with it or am I reading into the code.
Rick

Before we go to far please grab a code book and take a look at 312.5(C) Exception.

There are ways of using just a conduit to enter NM cable into a cabinet without connectors that are NEC compliant.

The panel would have to be surface mounted for one thing.

 

[TOOL_5150]

However, the pic in the OP is a flush mount. I see the many romexes entering the panel as a code violation, though I wish it wasnt.

~Matt

 

[iwire]

However, the pic in the OP is a flush mount.

Yes it is, I could tell that by the sheet rock around it. :grin:

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I never understood why the use of the larger nipple is safe when exposed and not safe when covered by drywall or another finish. I think the exception should be deleted or expanded to cover both surface and flush installations. However being more of a conduit person than an NM person, that is not a proposal that i will be making for the 2014 code

 

[r_merc]

312.5 (C) Ex

312.5 (C) Ex

I don't think that 312.5 (C) applies in any way. The panel is flush mounted and it is just a TA.

Rick
312.5
(C) Cables. Where cable is used, each cable shall be secured to the cabinet, cutout box, or meter socket enclosure.
Exception: Cables with entirely nonmetallic sheaths shall be permitted to enter the top of a surface-mounted enclosure through one or more nonflexible raceways not less than 450 mm (18 in.) and not more than 3.0 m (10 ft) in length, provided all of the following conditions are met:
(a) Each cable is fastened within 300 mm (12 in.), measured along the sheath, of the outer end of the raceway.
(b) The raceway extends directly above the enclosure and does not penetrate a structural ceiling.
(c) A fitting is provided on each end of the raceway to protect the cable(s) from abrasion and the fittings remain accessible after installation.
(d) The raceway is sealed or plugged at the outer end using approved means so as to prevent access to the enclosure through the raceway.
(e) The cable sheath is continuous through the raceway and extends into the enclosure beyond the fitting not less than 6 mm (1⁄4 in.).
(f) The raceway is fastened at its outer end and at other points in accordance with the applicable article.
(g) Where installed as conduit or tubing, the allowable cable fill does not exceed that permitted for complete conduit or tubing systems by Table 1 of Chapter 9 of this Code
and all applicable notes thereto.
FPN: See Table 1 in Chapter 9, including Note 9, for allowable
cable fill in circular raceways. See 310.15(B)(2)(a) for
required ampacity reductions for multiple cables installed in a
common raceway.

 

[r_merc]

Just the wrong connector

Just the wrong connector

To me the second sentence seems to spell it out. Just use the right fittings.

Rick

300.15 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, or Fittings ?Where Required.
A box shall be installed at each outlet and switch point for concealed knob-and-tube wiring. Fittings and connectors shall be used only with the specific wiring methods for which they are designed and listed.
Where the wiring method is conduit, tubing, Type AC cable, Type MC cable, Type MI cable, nonmetallic-sheathed cable, or other cables, a box or conduit body shall be installed at each conductor splice point, outlet point, switch point, junction point, termination point, or pull point, unless otherwise permitted in 300.15(A) through (M).

 

[Dennis Alwon]

That was a very common install in my area of NC. I have seen it done with just a connector and no pvc.

I never understood why the pipe up is okay under the right conditions but not down. I still will throw a conduit into the crawl for future wires. You can always add a jb and switch over but personally I would rather see the NM cable go right in the conduit.

I have not done an install like that in 20 years or so. I now use NM conn. unless it is an outdoor panel.

 

[r_merc]

.

.

That was a very common install in my area of NC. I have seen it done with just a connector and no pvc.

I never understood why the pipe up is okay under the right conditions but not down. I still will throw a conduit into the crawl for future wires. You can always add a jb and switch over but personally I would rather see the NM cable go right in the conduit.

I have not done an install like that in 20 years or so. I now use NM conn. unless it is an outdoor panel.

This is just a PVC 2" TA. no pipe. It's not listed for that use. Just like using a 1.5" TOMIC wouldn't cut it either. It must just be an old school method that doesn't want to die. I read that that type of install hasn't been code compliant for 50 Years.

 

[jwjrw]

I have seen many surface mount panels with a 2" pvc conn and piece of pvc for all the load circuits in the top. Cant say I have ever ran into any issues with circuits ran that way. I guess anything is possible but I don't see it as a big deal. Like someone said back to back panels and nipples are done that way.

 

[cowboyjwc]

So, if they use a 2" cable clamp, then it complies?

 

[iwire]

To me the second sentence seems to spell it out. Just use the right fittings.

Rick

300.15 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, or Fittings ?Where Required.
A box shall be installed at each outlet and switch point for concealed knob-and-tube wiring. Fittings and connectors shall be used only with the specific wiring methods for which they are designed and listed.
Where the wiring method is conduit, tubing, Type AC cable, Type MC cable, Type MI cable, nonmetallic-sheathed cable, or other cables, a box or conduit body shall be installed at each conductor splice point, outlet point, switch point, junction point, termination point, or pull point, unless otherwise permitted in 300.15(A) through (M).

300.15 does not apply to the cabinets panelboards are mounted in.