ECs Inspectors and Industry

[ivsenroute]

It might be a long post but I think it will create some worthy discussion.

At what point is the inspector suppose to draw the line in the sand? All inspectors are different and have different viewpoints and personalities. So do electrical contractors. What you can say to one EC you cannot say to another. The response from different ECs varies when the same sentence is delivered in the same manner and tone. Perception and intent are two different things with some people and this creates the communication breakdown that drives dissention between the contractor and inspector. There are plenty of ECs out there who I get along with well and they call me for advice on jobs and hire me when they are working in areas that don’t have an inspector. They have choices and choose to hire me. This is the majority. Then there are 1 or 2 that don’t care to ever cross my path and have unprofessional responses when their inspection does not go well.
As an inspector I find myself trying to think outside the box and since I understand the EC very well as I was one for 25 years. I will wait to re-inspect a job when I have to come back for another trade anyway so as not to cause the EC a re-inspection fee. I can approve a job and still write up a correction/deficiency list if the issues will still be accessible for the next inspection. We want the job to move forward just as much as the EC does. It is much easier to pass a compliant installation than it is to sit and write up a correction list.

So what about that line in the sand? Who am I, or who does any inspector think they are to pick and choose what code violations they are going to write up? A violation is a violation is a violation is of course, a violation no matter how you look at it. Will it cause a problem? Maybe, maybe not, but the simple fact is that it is still a violation. When the contractor is not present and we leave the paperwork behind, they show up and find out they failed causes phone calls with comments from the EC like: “I can’t believe you failed the inspection because of a few missing staples and protector plates” or other statements such as “You gotta be kidding me! You are going to fail me because the receptacle is 4-1/2’ from the edge of the pool?” A frequent response is: “You and I both know that situation will never cause a problem so why do you have to give me a hard time?”

As inspectors we need to be consistent and do our jobs. We don’t write the code, we simply enforce it. I find myself getting “soft” once in awhile when it comes time to the nitpicky small items. This usually ends up working against us when the ECs talk amongst each other or we hear “John Doe Electric told me you let him go so why are you failing me?” Anything short of complete code compliance is doing nothing more than undermining the industry and increasing liability for all involved. Ask anyone who has ever been in court how they make mountains out of mole hills but that is not the point. We all need to elevate our performances. I have been wrong before, I was challenged, verified that I was wrong, backed down and apologized. It was not the first time I was wrong and it won’t be the last either. I have no problem admitting when I make a mistake or taking a step back and re-evaluating the situation. The ECs out there have the same issues. None of us our perfect; we all make mistakes.

There is no reason we all can’t work together towards making a profession out of our industry. There is difference. OK, thoughts?

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

These are some of the same questions I used to ask myself.
Your searching for justification, which should not be necessary, as you answer alot of questions within your statement.

One that stands out for me, is the court situation. I was sued for "prejidicial inspection creating excessive costs". I was on the stand for 3 days.
Day 1 - the attorney, doing his job, will go after your credibility in a very aggressive manner. I say good luck, be prepared and try not to wither or get angry. That is his job, your job is to try and be prepared. Not all questions will be code or electrical.
Day 2 - detail upon detail in regards to your inspection and the job. Relating your inspection of that job to others...consistency is what they will be looking for. As soon as a crack appears, they pounce on that, no matter how insignificant it may be.
Day 3 - Very weary from all the questions and the way words can be twisted. Remember, most attorneys understand the meaning of the english language much better than us, and can make you feel very small on the stand.

I was in court too many times. That is one of the reasons why I became very consistant and just followed the code as written, for all ECs. Like you, I was in the field 25 years and had many friends who I inspected for.

If anyone who is reading this and is contemplating being an inspector, remember a very important aspect of being an inspector. You will not make many friends, some friends you had will immediately stop speaking freely with you, some friends will not speak with you at all. You will see what I call "dirty laundry". Get used to it.

How should inspections occur? You are sworn to an oath of duty to uphold the codes, not the codes you like, all of them (even the insignificant, harmless codes - those are the ones that the attorney will attack you for). In the long run it is easier to do so...with the consequence a lot of people will stop speaking with you, although not all.

This is a great industry, and there are many really great people in it. The one saving grace for an inspector is to treat the people he deals with on a daily basis, it to treat them the way he would like to be treated.
Discussing the correction necessary does not have to be a battle. So learn how to speak with people and remember all people have feelings, even the ones you do not like yourself.

 

[r_merc]

Personalities

Personalities

The older I get the more I realize that for an Inspector it is his reputation and livelyhood that are on the line everytime you go out. Now here in my state inspectors are part of the county/city government and not hired. Sometimes this seems to bring out a certain attitude in new inspectors that now I have a badge I am the Law and want to run roughshod. I've had that discussion and told the young man keep your attitude and do your job; treat every one/job the same. My attitude is that an inspector is there to help the EC deliver a quality product to the end user (That's assuming the EC is trying to deliver a quality product). Second part of that is that we educate each other. You get alot of training that the EC usually doesn't have the time for. I on the other hand have alot of experience under my belt that most of the Inspectors don't have as they are multi hat. I know that every three years I go obsolete. I take my CEU's and try to get up to speed as fast as I can. So with all that, I get along with all the inspectors in the counties i do business with.
Oh yeah last comment;
Don't treat me like I'm and idiot and I won't think you are one.

Rick

 

[One-eyed Jack]

Consistency is the key. Having a reputation as hardnosed is OK as long as it is hardnosed to "Everyone". Your friends will understand in time if not immediately. To to take your former co-workers job apart does wonders for your reputation as an equal opportunity inspector. The next time you are on that GC's job and find a problem he does not feel like he is being "Picked" on. It is a job and doing it well does not require an apology on your part.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I agree with consistency. I have a reputation of being tough, but fair. I've seen inspectors that if they don't know the answer they will write the correction notice and let the EC prove who's right or wrong. If I don't know I make sure I look it up.

I also agree with don't treat me like an idiot. More than once I've found the problem that three electricians couldn't figure out. Or sat there and listened to two guys try to figure something out and then I say why don't you try so and so and then they both pull the old "why didn't you think of that?"

Many, not all, an electrical inspector has been an electrician, but very few electricans have been inspectors.

 

[ty]

My biggest gripe with an Inspector is if he is just making up his own codes, and has nothing to back him up.

If my company has a violation, I have no problem correcting it, no matter how simple it is. There is no hard feelings at all.
Part of my Inspector's job is to watch out for me, not to pass things that don't meet code or are unsafe, and could potentially come back to bite me. I like when an Inspector, INSPECTS.

As Inspectors make mistakes, so do Electricians.
We had a non job stopping violation recently. In one jurisdiction there is an ammendment that the refrigerator in a dwelling must be on a dedicated circuit. There was a nook with 3 receptacles, and one of my guys put the Frig on that circuit. (the countertop receptacle circuits have only those outlets.)
It was an easy thing to forget that ammendment, especially when the 3 nook outlets were on a dedicated 20 amp circuit. No body was berated, it was fixed. vWe work in different jurisdictions that have different ammendments. It is sometimes hard to keep them straight.

 

[ivsenroute]

My biggest gripe with an Inspector is if he is just making up his own codes, and has nothing to back him up.

If my company has a violation, I have no problem correcting it, no matter how simple it is. There is no hard feelings at all.
Part of my Inspector's job is to watch out for me, not to pass things that don't meet code or are unsafe, and could potentially come back to bite me. I like when an Inspector, INSPECTS.

As Inspectors make mistakes, so do Electricians.
We had a non job stopping violation recently. In one jurisdiction there is an ammendment that the refrigerator in a dwelling must be on a dedicated circuit. There was a nook with 3 receptacles, and one of my guys put the Frig on that circuit. (the countertop receptacle circuits have only those outlets.)
It was an easy thing to forget that ammendment, especially when the 3 nook outlets were on a dedicated 20 amp circuit. No body was berated, it was fixed. vWe work in different jurisdictions that have different ammendments. It is sometimes hard to keep them straight.

This attitude is the attitude of a professional. Not all ECs look at it like this, and life would be easy for everyone if they did.

Just as a the bad attitude of an EC does not help the situation, the same thing can be said for inspectors, especially those who make up their own rules or have limited experience and learn by what they see ECs do.

This past summer I installed a 320A service for my aunt when they had a new garage added to the house. I was in the trench when the inspector got there for the footer inspection. He was a combination inspector. I placed 22' of #4 bare, stranded copper inside the footer and connected it at 2 points to the rebar.

While I was making the connection to the rebar with a #4 bare stranded copper (with clamps approved for concrete encasement) I heard him ask the GC "What is that copper wire for he (meaning me) is putting in there?"

I could not believe the electrical inspector just asked the GC that question. The GC said, talk to the electrician about that. When I finished and came out of the trench he asked me what the copper wire was for. I told him that it was a CEE because it had to be there and now I don't have to use ground rods.

He immediately told me I had to install ground rods anyway. He did not know me at all. I asked him why I had to put in ground rods when I had a more than compliant CEE and his response was "Because that is what I see the electricians do around here". I aske him if any of the other contractors used rebar in their footings and he said, "yes, all of them". I asked why he was not requiring them to use them as a CEE and he looked at me and said "Are you an inspector?". I then educated him on why I was not going to be installing ground rods.

My point is that this guy had no experience in the EC field but passed the residential electrical test and was now performing inspections with no clue and making up his own rules from what he was seeing others do. He was using the poor work of others as his gauge for how something should be done.

I feel and understand your pain.

 

[brian john]

The older I get the more I realize that for an Inspector it is his reputation and livelyhood that are on the line everytime you go out. Now here in my state inspectors are part of the county/city government and not hired.

You are still hired at some point??????

My attitude is that an inspector is there to help the EC deliver a quality product to the end user (That's assuming the EC is trying to deliver a quality product).

It is quite possible to deliver a less than quality product that is NEC compliant.

 

[iwire]

My attitude is that an inspector is there to help the EC deliver a quality product to the end user

I do not think 'quality' is any of the inspector business.

Quality or the opinion of quality should be between the buyer and the provider.

 

[nakulak]

read quality, in terms of :safe and free from hazards for property and personnel (90)

 

[iwire]

read quality, in terms of :safe and free from hazards for property and personnel (90)

Then lets just say free from hazards for property and personnel.

 

[nakulak]

Then lets just say free from hazards for property and personnel.

you say potato, I say loabstah chowdah

 

[stevenje]

Personally the tougher the inspector the better I like them. We all know which EC's that you bid against tend to cut corners or just plain don't have a clue. IMHO a knowledgeable tough inspector who consistently follows the code will help level the playing field between those EC's who deliver a good code compliant product and whose who do not.
The attitude that "That's good enough for government work" or "You can't see it from my house" burns my ...you know what.
If we as tradesmen and contractors do not keep the workmanship and code compliant standards as high possible, we will all suffer in the end. Tough, fair and knowledgeable inspectors should be the rule not the exception. They are the gatekeepers for our industry.

 

[brian john]

Personally the tougher the inspector the better I like them. We all know which EC's that you bid against tend to cut corners or just plain don't have a clue. IMHO a knowledgeable tough inspector who consistently follows the code will help level the playing field between those EC's who deliver a good code compliant product and whose who do not.
.

I like a NICE, fair, inspector that knows the code and enforces to the code. I want all my jobs to be code compliant and a TOP quality project.

 

[nakulak]

Personally the tougher the inspector the better I like them. We all know which EC's that you bid against tend to cut corners or just plain don't have a clue. IMHO a knowledgeable tough inspector who consistently follows the code will help level the playing field between those EC's who deliver a good code compliant product and whose who do not.
The attitude that "That's good enough for government work" or "You can't see it from my house" burns my ...you know what.
If we as tradesmen and contractors do not keep the workmanship and code compliant standards as high possible, we will all suffer in the end. Tough, fair and knowledgeable inspectors should be the rule not the exception. They are the gatekeepers for our industry.

I agree with this and I like it that way too.

 

[r_merc]

You are still hired at some point??????

I don't work in PA or NY but it sounds to me that the EC has to Hire an inspection company. If that is the case then I would suppose that some EC's would try to hire someone who is easy. Now if I am mistaken and it is the counties that hire outside inspection companies then it would be similar to what we have here (Just a change in employer for the EI)

It is quite possible to deliver a less than quality product that is NEC compliant.

Read Nanulak's comment

 

[wbalsam1]

Inspectors should enforce the code not make up rules. An inspector who makes up even one tiny, itty-bitty, miniscule rule ain't worth his weight in expired code books.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Inspectors should enforce the code not make up rules. An inspector who makes up even one tiny, itty-bitty, miniscule rule ain't worth his weight in expired code books.

Fred
Those old code books are worth a lot these days...

 

[macmikeman]

Inspectors should enforce the code not make up rules. An inspector who makes up even one tiny, itty-bitty, miniscule rule ain't worth his weight in expired code books.

I am in agreement with this above statement wholeheartedly. Opposite side of the coin and as completely worthless is an "electrician" who either disregards the code on a routine basis, or has no idea what is in the code book to begin with. We all make mistakes, and we all forget things from time to time, but some jobs I see are riddled with code violations. On the other hand I get burnt up over some of the things certain inspectors come up with that has no basis whatever in the code book, or is a spagetti of various code from various chapters not related to what the inspector is trying to point out as a code violation. So I think this thing goes both ways.

When I do get a good inspector show up who knows his stuff it makes my day. I really enjoy a detailed inspection from a pro, picky or not, as long as he sticks to the code book. That is what keeps me on track and I'm glad for it.

 

[brian john]

I Opposite side of the coin and as completely worthless is an "electrician" who either disregards the code on a routine basis, or has no idea what is in the code book to begin with.

The majority of electricians have minimal NEC knowledge or understanding.

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