Amazes me

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john windley

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Northern VA
I just read "Stumped By The Code" in the Jan issue of EC&M. The first question, "Do I need a grounding conductor for a pole light, or is the ground rod good enough." I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude but I can't believe the question was asked, and furthermore time was spent answering it. Come on, that's not even electricity 101. If we have electricians out there that don't know the answer to that, our training system is broken.
 
augie47

augie47

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Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
ride with me on an inspection day :grin:

seen that more than once......................................and worse
 
iwire

iwire

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Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
john windley said:
I just read "Stumped By The Code" in the Jan issue of EC&M. The first question, "Do I need a grounding conductor for a pole light, or is the ground rod good enough." I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude but I can't believe the question was asked, and furthermore time was spent answering it. Come on, that's not even electricity 101. If we have electricians out there that don't know the answer to that, our training system is broken.
Click to expand...

Many people with utility power company backgrounds only know about ground rods.

To this day power companies may install light poles with only ground rods as the 'protection' so perhaps this person had run into these and was puzzled.
 
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shepelec

Senior Member
Location
Palmer, MA
Don't you guys know, ground rods fix everything. I especially like seeing them with a pool installation.:roll: It is scarey to see what some people think is a proper job.
 
infinity

infinity

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Staff member
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New Jersey
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Journeyman Electrician
john windley said:
I just read "Stumped By The Code" in the Jan issue of EC&M. The first question, "Do I need a grounding conductor for a pole light, or is the ground rod good enough." I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude but I can't believe the question was asked, and furthermore time was spent answering it. Come on, that's not even electricity 101. If we have electricians out there that don't know the answer to that, our training system is broken.
Click to expand...

This doesn't really amaze me anymore than a question about the ground up or the ground down, need a pull box every 100', is grounding a pool with a ground rod required, ground can't cause a fumble. OK you get my point. ;)
 
LarryFine

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
iwire said:
Many people with utility power company backgrounds only know about ground rods.

To this day power companies may install light poles with only ground rods as the 'protection' so perhaps this person had run into these and was puzzled.
Click to expand...
That's nothing. Around here, they think that a ground rod will prevent an open service neutral conductor from causing problems.

But, then they also think that equal line-to-neutral voltages with no load proves the neutral is okay.
 
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winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
john windley said:
I just read "Stumped By The Code" in the Jan issue of EC&M. The first question, "Do I need a grounding conductor for a pole light, or is the ground rod good enough."
Click to expand...

So what would you call an installation that supplies light poles using an ungrounded circuit conductor and a grounded circuit conductor, bonds the pole to the grounded conductor, and uses a ground rod, with _no_ EGC.

I would call it legal under 2002 or earlier NEC.

The belief that a ground rod can provide an effective ground fault path is myth that needs to be debunked far and wide. But an EGC is not the only way to provide such a ground fault path.

(Note: I would argue that with a resistance grounded system with sensitive ground fault protection included in each OCPD, a ground rod _would_ provide an effective ground fault path. So there! :) :) (Of course, such an installation is not considered under current code.) )

-Jon
 
L

lostinspace

Member
Location
Florida
LarryFine said:
That's nothing. Around here, they think that a ground rod will prevent an open service neutral conductor from causing problems.

But, then they also think that equal line-to-neutral voltages with no load proves the neutral is okay.
Click to expand...

wow, you have florida power and light up there too?:D
 
H

hurk27

Senior Member
Location
Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
winnie said:
So what would you call an installation that supplies light poles using an ungrounded circuit conductor and a grounded circuit conductor, bonds the pole to the grounded conductor, and uses a ground rod, with _no_ EGC.

I would call it legal under 2002 or earlier NEC.

The belief that a ground rod can provide an effective ground fault path is myth that needs to be debunked far and wide. But an EGC is not the only way to provide such a ground fault path.

(Note: I would argue that with a resistance grounded system with sensitive ground fault protection included in each OCPD, a ground rod _would_ provide an effective ground fault path. So there! :) :) (Of course, such an installation is not considered under current code.) )

-Jon
Click to expand...


Yep and POCO's are big boys with lots of money and layers when the suits start.

but as a small contractor I would not want to be the person who used a grounded conductor as the fault path, when the neutral comes loose and a child touches the pole, they would string me up and hang me.


Of course this same problem exist at any house that doesnt have a common water pipe with another service down the road?
 
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wirenut1980

wirenut1980

Senior Member
Location
Plainfield, IN
hurk27 said:
Yep and POCO's are big boys with lots of money and layers when the suits start.

but as a small contractor I would not want to be the person who used a grounded conductor as the fault path, when the neutral comes loose and a child touches the pole, they would string me up and hang me.


Of course this same problem exist at any house that doesnt have a common water pipe with another service down the road?
Click to expand...

True utilities have a lot of money, but that is not why we use the neutral as the EGC. We do it because we are allowed to by the NESC. If the lights are owned and installed by utilities, the neutral can be used as the EGC and is bonded to the pole if it is metal. Strange how ownership has an influence on the way electrons behave ;).

If you are following the NEC, I would not want to use the neutral as the EGC either :). In this situation, I would think the EGC has a similar probability of coming loose as the neutral, hence presenting the same hazard.
 
mtfallsmikey

mtfallsmikey

Senior Member
john windley said:
I just read "Stumped By The Code" in the Jan issue of EC&M. The first question, "Do I need a grounding conductor for a pole light, or is the ground rod good enough." I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude but I can't believe the question was asked, and furthermore time was spent answering it. Come on, that's not even electricity 101. If we have electricians out there that don't know the answer to that, our training system is broken.
Click to expand...

Heck, I knew that one...and I'm just one of those "Electrically related individuals" here....
 
mcclary's electrical

mcclary's electrical

Senior Member
Location
VA
LarryFine said:
That's nothing. Around here, they think that a ground rod will prevent an open service neutral conductor from causing problems.

But, then they also think that equal line-to-neutral voltages with no load proves the neutral is okay.
Click to expand...



I had this argument last week with a Dominion "electrician". He said evrything was fine until he turned on the main,,,,,therfore the problem must be in the house,,,,,causing 190 volts on "A" phase" and 30 on "B" phase. ,,,,,,,must be in the house.,,,,,,,yeah right
 
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