t-8's on t-12 ballasts

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e57

Senior Member
Did a service call where a store had been putting t-8 lamping in t-12 ballasted fixtures - there is a lamp and ballast life issue - but can't sort out 'why'? Voltage - starting??? Both?

And why they hell did they make it so t-8's would fit in the first place....
 

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
If they're newer electronic ballasts they probably will start the T-8 bulbs. However, from my experience, if they have older magnetic ballasts in the fixtures they'll either not work or stop working at some point in time.
 

K2X

Senior Member
Location
Colorado Springs
I'm going to say that a weak or old mag ballast , (nearing the end of it's life span), could burn a t-8 rather nicely. I think a new, quality, mag would burn out a t-8 in a day or two.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
Warranty on lamps and or ballast is gone if use the wrong bulb/ballast install. Simply put it is a hack job. What the maintenance man does is up to him but it is asking for failure. If customer would rather replace them 1 by 1 as they fail that is up to him. You can put 100 watt lamps in 60 watt fixtures and just sit back and wait for fire or failure.
 

e57

Senior Member
So what is the operational difference between a T12, and T-8? (Other than lamp diameter) What creates this low life cycle when a customer mis-matches the lamp - which works fine for some time - but still works none the less....

Starting? (Both Rapid Start - one electronic the other magnetic - both still available for each)
Voltage? (120-277 universal input if not specified...) Output voltage????? (unknown)
Current? (unknown)
Current correction value? (unknown)
Wattage - 40W vs. 32W But how does that change anything????
 

ike5547

Senior Member
Location
Chico, CA
Occupation
Electrician
Ballasts are so cheap that none of us has bothered to understand what makes 'em tick. In some 3rd world countries they actually assemble their own ballasts from components.
 
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e57

Senior Member
Ballasts are so cheap that none of us has bothered to understand what makes 'em tick.
Apparently..... I pointed out this lamping difference to a customer the other and she asked what the difference was - and it's one of the few times I have ever drawn a blank on something in years.... As even if I don't know the specifics... I know the basic gist behind it... For this I had no answer...

Been looking and everything on the topic is vague at best - if not skirts the issue....

But according to this it appears to be starting and electrode voltage. This on top of the difference of operating Hz. (Mag @ 60Hz - electronic in a range Khz)

Still have no real answer that I can see - I know there is a Guru here someplace on the topic....
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
From that link it clearly says to high or to low causes problems.
What i am sure of is wrong ballast for lamp = trouble
tried it once in my office ,replaced t 12 with t 8 fired up but was not bright. Was just being lazy about changing ballast. For a customer or would not even attempt to exsplain how they work. Just tell them they will have short life if they even try to work. I would refuse to install wrong lamps on any fixture.

Cant be much to them, take a look at the new screw shell florecent bulbs that have ballast in them.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
Fluorescent lamps have a 'negative resistance' characteristic, which could also be called 'negative incremental resistance'. What this means is that for small changes in current around the nominal operating point, an increase in current is associated with a reduction in voltage dropped across the lamp.

If you simply connect a fluorescent lamp to a voltage source, and the voltage is high enough to actually start the lamp, then this negative resistance characteristic means that nothing will limit current flow; current flow will rise until something breaks.

The job of the ballast is to provide sufficient voltage to start the lamp, and then to control the current flowing through the lamp to a specified value. In the simplest case, the ballast is simply something with sufficient positive resistance to counteract the negative resistance of the lamp; this could be a simple resistor, though this would be tremendously inefficient.

A magnetic ballast uses inductive reactance to limit current flow.

An electronic ballast rectifies the input to DC, and then uses high frequency switching circuitry to provide a controlled current drive to the lamp.

Nominal current for a T-12 lamp is 430mA. Nominal current for a T-8 lamp is 265mA. The lamp voltage adjusted to maintain these currents; this means that a 4 foot 32watt T-8 lamp operates at higher voltage than a 4 foot 40watt T-12 lamp.

All of the above ignores things such as starting voltage and lamp filament heating current.

-Jon
 

e57

Senior Member
Ahhhh - much better thank you Jon...

What I can glean so far is that the operating currents differ and apparently this burns out the electrodes at each end - be it from voltage or current control. Since the lamp is part of the 'system' of limiting current and voltage, a match of lamp to ballast is needed. From what I can tell so far - is that the difference from T12 to T8 is pretty small on single lamp on their own... Multiple lamps in series or paralel are additive to produce wider variations in that current/voltage balance - and kill the lamps or ballast faster... It appears manufactures are a little secretive to what those parameters actually are - IMO

While you could put a T8 in a T-12 fixture, and in some cases vise versa - it is the resistance of the lamp itself that determines the final operating voltage and current - is that correct?
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
While you could put a T8 in a T-12 fixture, and in some cases vise versa - it is the resistance of the lamp itself that determines the final operating voltage and current - is that correct?

Both the characteristics of the lamp and the ballast will determine the final current.

In the ultra simplistic approximation, the ballast is a perfect current source, and the output current will always be exactly what the ballast was designed for. The lamp characteristics would then determine the operating voltage.

In the real world, the ballast is not a perfect current source, and the output current will change with output voltage; but if the output voltage falls in the normal operating range of the ballast, then the output current should be pretty close to nominal.

-Jon
 

cschmid

Senior Member
So what is the operational difference between a T12, and T-8? (Other than lamp diameter) What creates this low life cycle when a customer mis-matches the lamp - which works fine for some time - but still works none the less....

Starting? (Both Rapid Start - one electronic the other magnetic - both still available for each)
Voltage? (120-277 universal input if not specified...) Output voltage????? (unknown)
Current? (unknown)
Current correction value? (unknown)
Wattage - 40W vs. 32W But how does that change anything????


I do believe I have an answer as to why you have a shortened life on your bulbs in this poor installation you have stumbled on. you want to know why the bulbs deteriorate at a higher rate when installed in the wrong ballast. Jon is correct but the term I believe you are actually after is Ballast factor.
I cut and pasted this from "the Advanced Lighting Guidelines: 1993 (Second Edition), originally published by the California Energy Commission."


Ballast Factor

One of the most important ballast parameters for the lighting designer/engineer is the ballast factor. The ballast factor is needed to determine the light output for a particular lamp-ballast system. Ballast factor is a measure of the actual lumen output for a specific lamp-ballast system relative to the rated lumen output measured with a reference ballast under ANSI test conditions (open air at 25 degrees C [77 degrees F]). An ANSI ballast for standard 40-watt F40T12 lamps requires a ballast factor of 0.95; the same ballast has a ballast factor of 0.87 for 34-watt energy saving F40T12 lamps. However, many ballasts are available with either high (conforming to the ANSI specifications) or low ballast factors (70 to 75%). It is important to note that the ballast factor value is not simply a characteristic of the ballast, but of the lamp-ballast system. Ballasts that can operate more than one type of lamp (e.g., the 40-watt F40 ballast can operate either 40-watt F40T12, 34-watt F40T12, or 40-watt F40T10 lamps) will generally have a different ballast factor for each combination (e.g., 95%, <95%, and >95%, respectively).

Ballast factor is not a measure of energy efficiency. Although a lower ballast factor reduces lamp lumen output, it also consumes proportionally less input power. As such, careful selection of a lamp-ballast system with a specific ballast factor allows designers to better minimize energy use by "tuning" the lighting levels in the space. For example, in new construction, high ballast factors are generally best, since fewer luminaires will be required to meet the light level requirements. In retrofit applications or in areas with less critical visual tasks, such as aisles and hallways, lower ballast factor ballasts may be more appropriate.

To avoid a drastic reduction in lamp life low ballast factor ballasts (<70%) should operate lamps in rapid start mode only. This is particularly relevant for 32-watt F32T8 lamps operated at high frequency.

Finding the ballast factor for lamp-ballast combinations may not be easy, as few ballast manufacturers provide this information in their catalogs. However, if the input power for a particular lamp-ballast system is known (usually found in catalogs) an estimate of the ballast factor is possible.
 

ike5547

Senior Member
Location
Chico, CA
Occupation
Electrician
Seems like you could clamp an amprobe over one of the leads to a lamp holder and see how much current a lamp rated for 265mA --was it?-- that's connected to an F40 ballast is drawing just to see what happens. That's probably what you'd like to know (what actually happens.) We all know you shouldn't mismatch lamps and ballasts.

That info's not necessarily gonna tell you much in isolation, though. Just for the heck of it.
 
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