Fire Alarm/Elevator Recall/Hat/Shunt Wiring

[GOCS626]

Hey guys, I have a couple questions about fire alarm wiring in regards to the relays that control elevator recalls.

I know how recalls work and why they function I was just curious of how the relays for them work electrically. Do the primary, secondary, and fire hat relays work on the Normally Open contacts??? (which is what Im guessing?) or the Normally Closed? is it the same for shunt??

Im guessing it would be the Normally Open so when the relays fire in alarm, it makes a connection to fire a circuit, circuit board or whatever in the elevator control box to initiate the recalls and turn on the fire hat light. Am I correct with this take??

Thanks in advance for the help in understanding!

 

[charlietuna]

We always provided a three wire circuit to the elevator contractor for 1) "recall" and 2) "alternate floor". They normally install relays from these wires which provided themselves both a N.C. and N.O. set of isolated contacts for their use.

 

[GOCS626]

Well what if youre installing a fire alarm system that uses Relay Modules that are tied into the SLC loop on the fire system? Ive been on a couple jobs where we have installed those for the elevator contractors and provided the wiring to their control cabinet. I just always seem to get pulled off these jobs before I can see how theyre hooked up.

So like in that case using Relay Mods, would they still use the NO contacts for the recalls, hat, and shunt?

Thanks for the help!

 

[charlietuna]

It really doesn't make any difference to them -- they will set their own relays which will be controlled by the fire alarm sysytem--either NO or NC. a fire system's control module usually has both !

 

[ron]

They might want the contacts to be supervised so they may place an end of line resistor.

 

[jmgill2]

I am an elevator mechanic, directly responsible for all the elevator wiring. The short answer to your question, is that there is no answer, every manufacturer of elevator equiptment does the fire alarm a different way. The first day I walk on a job I seek out the alarm company and give him a paper with my specific needs for that particular job. my advise is to seek out the foreman on the job and ask him what the needs for that job are.

 

[gadfly56]

They might want the contacts to be supervised so they may place an end of line resistor.

Do you mean supervised by the elevator control panel or the fire alarm control panel? I'm not aware of a relay module that supervises the relay output wiring. Some, like Siemens, may give you a module that has a dry contact input as well as a relay output, but it still only monitors the input wiring with an EOLR, not the relay output wiring. That's why we always put the relay module within three (3) feet of the elevator controller.

 

[RJohnsonMasterElectrician]

In AZ I am told to put 5 FRM's in. (In 2 story building) thats tallest building I have done
1. Primary recall
2. Secondary recall
3. Fire hat
4. Shunt trip
5. AC power monitoring (only state that requires it) to my knowledge
numbers 1,2,3,n 4 work NO
number 5 works NC

If memory serves
Num. 1 n 2 work on smokes, one each fl in front of elevator and top of shaft and one in elev. equip. rm if attached to elev. shaft
Num. 3 works on smoke det. in shaft or attached elev. equip rm to shaft
Num. 4 works on heats top of shaft, pit and elev. equip. rm (if sprinkler heads are installed)
Num.5 just monitors ac power if it was to drop out for some reason a trouble signal is sent so some one can come check out the car to see if any one trapped in it

 

[TLBryant]

Fire Alarm requirements for elevator fire service:

NFPA 13, NFPA 70, NFPA 72, ANSI / ASME A17.1 A17.3

Fire fighter's hat will turn on steady when the elevator car is place in bypass by with a service key.

Phase I Fire Service
Elevator recall smokes installed in elevator lobbies on every floor.
Activation of a smoke detector will send the car to the primary floor.
Activation of the smoke detector on the primary floor will send the car to the secondary floor.

Phase II Fire Service
When a smoke detector in the elevator hoist-way or equipment room activates the Fire Fighter's Hat will flash

If the hoist-way or equipment room is sprinklered, then there must be a 135 degree rate of rise or rate compensation heat detector installed within 24" of each sprinkler head and set for a lower trip temperature than the sprinkler head. When any heat detector is activated, primary elevator power shall be shut down via a shunt trip breaker supplying the elevator equipment. The shunt trip power must be 120VAC and must be supervised by the fire alarm system.

Every Elevator will need the following Fire Alarm devices:
Smoke detector in every elevator lobby
Smoke detector in the elevator equipment room
Smoke detector in hoist-way if permitted
Relay for Primary Recall
Relay for Secondary Recall
Relay for Flash Hat (some elevator Manufacturers require two relays to flash hat)
Relay for Shunt Trip
Monitor or zone for Shunt Trip Power Fail

As always check with AHJ. Some AHJs require the shunt trip to be delayed 30-60 secs.

 

[nhfire77]

If the hoist-way or equipment room is sprinklered, then there must be a 135 degree rate of rise or rate compensation heat detector installed within 24" of each sprinkler head and set for a lower trip temperature than the sprinkler head.

A 135 F fixed temp heat may work also. You have to take the heat detectors RTI into consideration before you can decide on what device to use. 08 NPFA 72.21.4.1

 

[luckylerado]

Shunt is always normally open

primary, secondary, and fire hat are almost always normally closed. I only say almost because I cannot claim to have worked on every variety of elevator equipment. This is to provide supervision of the control circuit. The relay wiring replaces jumpers that are installed in the elevator circuitry. If the wiring is broken or the relay opens then the recall/fire hat operation takes effect.

 

[notoriousdln]

Fire Alarm requirements for elevator fire service:

NFPA 13, NFPA 70, NFPA 72, ANSI / ASME A17.1 A17.3

Fire fighter's hat will turn on steady when the elevator car is place in bypass by with a service key.

Phase I Fire Service
Elevator recall smokes installed in elevator lobbies on every floor.
Activation of a smoke detector will send the car to the primary floor.
Activation of the smoke detector on the primary floor will send the car to the secondary floor.

Phase II Fire Service
When a smoke detector in the elevator hoist-way or equipment room activates the Fire Fighter's Hat will flash

If the hoist-way or equipment room is sprinklered, then there must be a 135 degree rate of rise or rate compensation heat detector installed within 24" of each sprinkler head and set for a lower trip temperature than the sprinkler head. When any heat detector is activated, primary elevator power shall be shut down via a shunt trip breaker supplying the elevator equipment. The shunt trip power must be 120VAC and must be supervised by the fire alarm system.
Every Elevator will need the following Fire Alarm devices:
Smoke detector in every elevator lobby
Smoke detector in the elevator equipment room
Smoke detector in hoist-way if permitted
Relay for Primary Recall
Relay for Secondary Recall
Relay for Flash Hat (some elevator Manufacturers require two relays to flash hat)
Relay for Shunt Trip
Monitor or zone for Shunt Trip Power Fail

As always check with AHJ. Some AHJs require the shunt trip to be delayed 30-60 secs.

is this done on the load side of the electrical disconnect...I have done many elevator refits and nothing has ever been required to be on a shunt trip?

 

[iwire]

Some areas do away with the shunt trip requirements, RI for instance is one area.

 

[notoriousdln]

alright i figured it was something like that..the only other thing i was thinking of is that were doing "refits" not new construction and it was grandfathered.

 

[luckylerado]

Shunt trip is required only if the hoistway or equipment room is sprinkled and is an important function. When installed and programed correctly is a Life Safety Issue and should never be omitted when required even if the AHJ or elevator inspector do not know or care enough to enforce it.

The idea is that first a fire condition will be detected by the required smoke detector and put the car into recall; sending the cab to a floor far enough away from the fire to get people off quickly then open the doors and take the car out of service. Then the heat detector will go off just before the fuse in the sprinkler head melts, shunting power to the equipment. This prevents the cab from going "haywire" when the controls are being showered with water.

I would like to see this go a bit further, to include the 120v cab light circuit in the shunt trip requirement better protecting anything from being energized in the the cab if the sprinkler goes off in the hoistway.

What I see most overlooked or just not practiced is proper installation and supervision of the 120v control ckt for the shut trip device.This is also by all rights a Life Safety Issue and should not be overlooked.

Fire alarm installers have a responsibility to the occupants of the building they are protecting and should take this very seriously.