3-position yoke-mount wall switch -- exist?

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ELA

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrical Test Engineer
You are nothing more than an a hard headed old man. YOU ASKED for electrical or electronic terminology,,,,,,then bash me for it. I do give up,,,,,he can installl his little heart out, he'll be the one replacing motion detectors every 3-4 months. Feel free

Some of the stuff you said did sound a little off subject.
Your discussion did cause me think and wonder.
If you have had first hand experiences with premature failures, then why? It does not seem like a backfeed of the same phase should be an issue.

I would never want to discount a persons first hand experiences as they are more telling than any theory on a subject is.

Perhaps when a mechanical switch backfeeds a triac it is the dv/dt that causes the triac to fail prematurely?
Over time if the mechanical switch happens to turn on at the peak the waveform, - often enough, the resultant dv/dt may degrade the triac.
 

realolman

Senior Member
You are nothing more than an a hard headed old man. YOU ASKED for electrical or electronic terminology,,,,,,then bash me for it. I do give up,,,,,he can installl his little heart out, he'll be the one replacing motion detectors every 3-4 months. Feel free



Hard headed and old enough to recognize BS when I see it.:)
 

lakee911

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, OH
You know, I wondered about back feeding but didn't think it would be a problem. I had not thought of it being solid-state though. It's been a long time since my electronics classes (op amps, transisters, diodes, etc) in college, but I don't doubt that you're right. It doesn't seem like BS.

I think I'll draw up a simple circuit using a standard light, couple of ice cube relays and a third party motion detector. I can still keep my standard light switch but the guts will be better designed for longivity.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Okay how about a simple way that won't backfeed the sensor and doesn't require a special-order switch? The ornage and blue stores have them.

Use a combo duplex switch, with one SP and one 3W in a single-gang body. (You'll have to break away the tab between screws.) Wire thusly:

1. Incoming hot feeds line terminal of sensor and line terminal of SP switch.

2. Output of sensor feeds one 3W traveler terminal; load terminal of SP feeds other traveler terminal.

3. Common terminal of 3W feeds the load.

Now, the 3W acts as AUTO/MAN switch, and SP acts as ON/OFF switch. "No fuss, no muss." And, no arguments. ;)
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
By the way, don't motion all sensors come with override features which are triggered by use of the regular switch? I believe they all do stay-on override, and some have blinking and other options. Off is simply off.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I have seen DPDT toggle switches that mount in regular switch box (center position is off) they have a mechanical stop that in order to go from the up position to the down position you have to stop at the center position and then push it again to continue moving it down.

They are intended to be used as a manual transfer switch.

If i remember correctly they cost around $80 at least 10-12 years ago.

another idea is to have a single pole switch as a "master on-off" and a three way as the selection of "hand - auto".

If single yoke is needed they do make a single pole/three way combination on a single yoke.[/quote]

Okay how about a simple way that won't backfeed the sensor and doesn't require a special-order switch? The ornage and blue stores have them.

Use a combo duplex switch, with one SP and one 3W in a single-gang body. (You'll have to break away the tab between screws.) Wire thusly:

1. Incoming hot feeds line terminal of sensor and line terminal of SP switch.

2. Output of sensor feeds one 3W traveler terminal; load terminal of SP feeds other traveler terminal.

3. Common terminal of 3W feeds the load.

Now, the 3W acts as AUTO/MAN switch, and SP acts as ON/OFF switch. "No fuss, no muss." And, no arguments. ;)

notice any similarities here.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
Why not just install a motion sensor that can be controlled by a normal SP switch?

The motion sensor I have outside my door is just such a critter. Turn the switch on, and it works like a normal, everyday motion sensor light. Turn the switch off, then right back on, and it comes on and stays on (but only if the photocell in it says it dark enough), and will continue to stay on until the sun comes up the next day.

And my SP switch will even turn it off, just by pushing the toggle down. Awesome!
 

mxslick

Senior Member
Location
SE Idaho
Okay how about a simple way that won't backfeed the sensor and doesn't require a special-order switch? The ornage and blue stores have them.

Use a combo duplex switch, with one SP and one 3W in a single-gang body. (You'll have to break away the tab between screws.) Wire thusly:

1. Incoming hot feeds line terminal of sensor and line terminal of SP switch.

2. Output of sensor feeds one 3W traveler terminal; load terminal of SP feeds other traveler terminal.

3. Common terminal of 3W feeds the load.

Now, the 3W acts as AUTO/MAN switch, and SP acts as ON/OFF switch. "No fuss, no muss." And, no arguments. ;)


Wow Larry, thanks for that info..I have had some situations (not lighting) where I've wanted a simple solution...great job and big thumbs up.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
By the way, don't motion all sensors come with override features which are triggered by use of the regular switch? I believe they all do stay-on override, and some have blinking and other options. Off is simply off.

Turn the switch on, and it works like a normal, everyday motion sensor light. Turn the switch off, then right back on, and it comes on and stays on (but only if the photocell in it says it dark enough), and will continue to stay on until the sun comes up the next day.

And my SP switch will even turn it off, just by pushing the toggle down. Awesome!
Notice any similarities here? :D
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Wow Larry, thanks for that info..I have had some situations (not lighting) where I've wanted a simple solution...great job and big thumbs up.
Thanx! It also works well with time clocks, because it leaves the timer motor energized regardless of the switch positions.
 

gcanavan

Member
Inside of the light that is being backfed builds up heat. Here's what happens to the electronics. An SCR is simply a p-n-p-n structure with a gate terminal . We can break the structure down as back-to-back transistors, one p-n-p, the other n-p-n. With that simplification, we can see that temperature analysis of the bipolar transistor extends logically to the SCR structure.

It is a well known empirical fact that leakage current approximately doubles with every 10? C increase in temperature.1 In a bipolar transistor, this increase in leakage is accentuated by the "transistor action" of the device. This can be explained by using an n-p-n transistor as an example. As we increase the temperature, more and more electrons are able to jump the barrier from the emitter to the base. This further biases the base region with respect to the emitter and collector, causing an increase in collector current. In fact, a transistor can be turned on simply by applying high temperature - sufficient leakage current can be generated to trigger the transistor action.

This discussion extends to the SCR, which is nothing more than two bipolar transistors driving each other. Any effect felt by the bipolar transistor is only magnified when discussing the SCR. The effect is not additive, it is multiplicative.

There is another temperature-related phenomenon we must point out: as we increase temperature, diode voltage decreases at an approximate rate of 2 mV/?C.2 Therefore, a transistor in the on state will have a tendency to not only stay on at high temperature, but to conduct even more fully; i.e., the barrier between p- and n-type regions is reduced even more.
The result of these two phenomena is that the bipolar transistor has a negative temperature coefficient; the higher the temperature, the higher the collector current at a given base drive.
Let's now extend the discussion to the SCR, specifically in Solid State devices. The S742 uses two SCRs in the output; thus, it can only be utilized in AC applications. This is because the only way to prevent these particular SCRs from conducting once they are turned on is to reverse the voltage across their terminals. This is dictated by the output of the application. In a DC application, once the SCR is turned on, there is no way of turning it off. Under DC, the SCR never experiences the reverse voltage condition across its terminals necessary to prevent conduction.

An SCR in the off state will tend to turn on and stay on (latch) at high temperatures. Of course, in the S742 one SCR will always be non-conducting because of the reverse voltage on the output. But the other will tend to turn on even without an input signal because of the above considerations.

In SSO's MOSFET-output devices, the driver consists of 14 series diodes. These diodes generate sufficient voltage to drive the gate of the output MOSFET, allowing conduction.

These results support theoretical expectations; namely, SCR-output devices can be expected to fail short , while MOSFET-output devices can be expected to fail open.

http://www.ssousa.com/appnote050.asp
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Why not just install a motion sensor that can be controlled by a normal SP switch?

The motion sensor I have outside my door is just such a critter. Turn the switch on, and it works like a normal, everyday motion sensor light. Turn the switch off, then right back on, and it comes on and stays on (but only if the photocell in it says it dark enough), and will continue to stay on until the sun comes up the next day.

And my SP switch will even turn it off, just by pushing the toggle down. Awesome!

I use this type of light. An added feature is that if you come home during the day and the lights are one, you can be reasonably sure there was a power outage while you were gone.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Why not use a double pole double throw center off switch and break the load side of the motion sensor

A transfer switch, so to speak.

That is what I would do with any solid state controller I have not benched and tested for longevity while being back fed, unless the nomenclature included permitted it and offered parameters.

No solid state device is a perfect insulator. In fact, the specs on them will include things like leakage current and breakover voltage. A board that is designed to tolerate voltage on the load side while not biased will have to have extra components. It's not likely they come that way off the shelf.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Just a tid bit.

Some controllers use mechanical relays with transistors inside them to respond to very small amounts of currents.

I know that boards in SLC-100 PLCs had them. I know because I did autopsies on them.

The relays were a little more than a 1/4 inch cube and were rated at 5 amps AC.

The crafty maintenance folks figured out that a 20 amp fuse would fit in the same hole where the 5 was supposed to go. That caused many relays to become fuses.

I got real fast at swapping them out.
 

realolman

Senior Member
You know anything can be made cheaply, but we have thousands of solid state relays at work... extremely reliable, I don't think there is anything inherently unreliable about a solid state relay. I don't see where that's coming from:-?
 

quinn77

Senior Member
why not install seperate motion lights in secure locations. here in the houston area crooks shoot them out with silenced pistols before they invade your property. if the light is visible they will eliminate it. the set-up you guys are bickering about would never be requested here, and IF it was, I would steer them in another direction.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
why not install seperate motion lights in secure locations. here in the houston area crooks shoot them out with silenced pistols before they invade your property. if the light is visible they will eliminate it. the set-up you guys are bickering about would never be requested here, and IF it was, I would steer them in another direction.
If I were there I would not be concerned about the light, I would have heavy door and no windows. I wouldn't even have the light, because of the crooks no one will need to use the light except possibly crooks.

Friends of mine were going to visit their son in Huston and he told them to bring a second wallet with fake id and small amount of money in it. If someone wants to rob you just let them have it. I bet they don't say this in tourism brochures:D
 
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