ANSUL system

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gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
Oh - and that is IF an FA sytem is in the building - not all buildings require a suprvised FA system here....

OK, so putting aside for the moment the issue of the shunt, if there is no fire alarm panel in the building, how do you meet the requirements of NFPA 17A regarding reserve power/supervision of the manual means?

Come to think of it, in this situation with all electric appliances you could still cook and have no protection/supervision at all if the circuit feeding the ANSUL goes down!!
 

benaround

Senior Member
Location
Arizona
gadfly,

It's not much different than all the homes that have 120v interconnected smokes, and in

some areas they must be on their own circuit. ( no battery back-up type ) and people

sleep there !
 

One-eyed Jack

Senior Member
gadfly,

It's not much different than all the homes that have 120v interconnected smokes, and in

some areas they must be on their own circuit. ( no battery back-up type ) and people

sleep there !
whoever is pushing this is not reading the smoke install instructions carefully. This is also a monitored circuit in that it must be on a unswitched circuit. One the is normally on all the time such as a lighting circuit. If the lights go out you will undoubtedly notice it and fix.
 

One-eyed Jack

Senior Member
OK, so putting aside for the moment the issue of the shunt, if there is no fire alarm panel in the building, how do you meet the requirements of NFPA 17A regarding reserve power/supervision of the manual means?

Come to think of it, in this situation with all electric appliances you could still cook and have no protection/supervision at all if the circuit feeding the ANSUL goes down!!

This is the reason with a shunt trip without an FA system it must be supervised in some manner. It could be as simple as a cube relay switchleg on the hood lights. Coil power for cube from shunt trip power circuit.
 

benaround

Senior Member
Location
Arizona
whoever is pushing this is not reading the smoke install instructions carefully. This is also a monitored circuit in that it must be on a unswitched circuit. One the is normally on all the time such as a lighting circuit. If the lights go out you will undoubtedly notice it and fix.


Jack, I'm sure it says not to put on a switched circuit, but, does it say the rest ? i know it's

a good way to do it.
 

e57

Senior Member
OK, so putting aside for the moment the issue of the shunt, if there is no fire alarm panel in the building, how do you meet the requirements of NFPA 17A regarding reserve power/supervision of the manual means?

Come to think of it, in this situation with all electric appliances you could still cook and have no protection/supervision at all if the circuit feeding the ANSUL goes down!!
Fire suppression for the hood is required, and if the HVAC system is ducted (Not all are) dampers are required - and that is all... Unless the building otherwise requires an FA system by building type - then there isn't one - this is common in smaller stand alone restaurants or buildings...

You should also see NFPA 96 if applicable. See page 21.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
Fire suppression for the hood is required, and if the HVAC system is ducted (Not all are) dampers are required - and that is all... Unless the building otherwise requires an FA system by building type - then there isn't one - this is common in smaller stand alone restaurants or buildings...

You should also see NFPA 96 if applicable. See page 21.

Unless I missed something in the thread, we haven't been talking about recirculating systems, electrostatic precipitators, or solid fuel cooking appliances. But hey, thanks for reminding me:

10.5.6 Electrical power shall be permitted to be used for manual activation if a standby power supply is provided or if supervision is provided in accordance with Section 10.7

None of the wiring diagrams you provided indicated backup power. So if you have an electrically operated suppression system and it is not hooked up to a fire alarm system for supervision per post #21 and your jurisdiction enforces NFPA 96, you have a code violation.

And further:

10.7.1 Where electrical power is required to operate the automatic fire-extinguishing system, it shall be monitored by a supervisory alarm, with a standby power supply provided.
10.7.2 System supervision shall not be required where an automatic fire-extinguishing system(s) includes automatic mechanical detection and actuation as a backup detection system.
10.7.3 System supervision shall not be required where a fire extinguishing system(s) is interconnected or interlocked with the cooking equipment power source(s) so that if the fireextinguishing system becomes inoperable due to power failure, all sources of fuel or electric power that produce heat to all cooking equipment serviced by that hood shall automatically shut off.

A fully electrical system without battery backup and supervision doesn't meet 10.7.1

A fully electric system with a shunt coil doesn't meet 10.7.3; with a contactor, it does.

It looks like 10.7.2 provides a loophole for the shunt coil, but taking section 10.7 in totality argues against it.
 

e57

Senior Member
The "fire extinguishing" or "Suppression" system is TOTALLY MECHANICAL.... And requires no power to operate - at all. Cables pull a pin out of a valve... Electrical power is not required to operate the suppression portion - the suppression portion - operated mechanically by them cables - operate several contacts as well....

Lets stop right here:
  • Totally mechanical means of operating suppression system
No battery back-up, or supervision required..... That is the suppression system - it is stand-alone... Operated by fusible link - or hand release of spring-loaded cable....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Next subject...
If there is a Supervised FA system in the building or otherwise required - it needs to get run to the provided contacts provided on the "Suppression System" - those are supervised... The contacts open the system goes into alarm mode...


10.6.2​
Where a fire alarm signaling system is serving the occupancy
where the extinguishing system is located, the activation
of the automatic fire-extinguishing system shall activate

the fire alarm signaling system.
Please note - they are two separate things.... (in pink and green) Also note the big IF. And the "Where"... There are places "Where" an FA system is not required....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now the AIR... A different subject, and dependant on design, and conditions... Sometimes - depending on conditions - fans would be going on, or off, and dampers closing, make-up air shutting off etc.

All of those items are automatically initiated by the fire extinguishing system - and happen outside of that system.

Some of those are supervised - if required - but happen outside of the fire extinguishing system...

I can't find anything about the power for those controls that are activated being supervised...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And now - "Fuel Shut-off"

10.4 Fuel Shutoff.
10.4.1​
Upon activation of any fire-extinguishing system for a
cooking operation, all sources of fuel and electric power that
produce heat to all equipment requiring protection by that
system shall automatically shut off.

10.4.2​
Steam supplied from an external source shall not be
required to automatically shut off.

10.4.3​
Any gas appliance not requiring protection, but located
under the same ventilating equipment, shall also automatically
shut off upon activation of any extinguishing system.

10.4.4 Shutoff devices shall require manual reset.
Again - All of those items are automatically initiated by the fire extinguishing system - and happen outside of that system. There is no mention of supervision or battery back up...

Now I think I know what you're gonna say - without power - it might not automatically happen... In a power failure the gas usually shuts off... (by solenoid which required power.) And there is no power for electrical heat creating items.... But it also does not seem to say it needs to be supervised either...

Granted - I don't do these everyday - but I have not been hit for a shunt trip yet...
 

One-eyed Jack

Senior Member
The "fire extinguishing" or "Suppression" system is TOTALLY MECHANICAL.... And requires no power to operate - at all. Cables pull a pin out of a valve... Electrical power is not required to operate the suppression portion - the suppression portion - operated mechanically by them cables - operate several contacts as well....


Lets stop right here:
  • Totally mechanical means of operating suppression system
No battery back-up, or supervision required..... That is the suppression system - it is stand-alone... Operated by fusible link - or hand release of spring-loaded cable....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Next subject...
If there is a Supervised FA system in the building or otherwise required - it needs to get run to the provided contacts provided on the "Suppression System" - those are supervised... The contacts open the system goes into alarm mode...

Please note - they are two separate things.... (in pink and green) Also note the big IF. And the "Where"... There are places "Where" an FA system is not required....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now the AIR... A different subject, and dependant on design, and conditions... Sometimes - depending on conditions - fans would be going on, or off, and dampers closing, make-up air shutting off etc.

All of those items are automatically initiated by the fire extinguishing system - and happen outside of that system.

Some of those are supervised - if required - but happen outside of the fire extinguishing system...

I can't find anything about the power for those controls that are activated being supervised...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And now - "Fuel Shut-off"

Again - All of those items are automatically initiated by the fire extinguishing system - and happen outside of that system. There is no mention of supervision or battery back up...

Now I think I know what you're gonna say - without power - it might not automatically happen... In a power failure the gas usually shuts off... (by solenoid which required power.) And there is no power for electrical heat creating items.... But it also does not seem to say it needs to be supervised either...

Granted - I don't do these everyday - but I have not been hit for a shunt trip yet...

In most cases we are not going to have a total power off condition. In this case almost all is good. Exhaust fan is to remain on. If you use a shunt trip to kill the power to the electrics that are affected. Make-up air,receptacles under the hood,etc. Fire Marshal or Mechnical inspector comes by to test for compliance and your shunt trip power source is off . The test fails because the electrically controlled items do not shut down. Ansul system worked flawlessly but the test failed because all sources of power have not been removed and no one on site knows why. Fail,Fail,Fail because the EC did not provide and educate the owner/operator on the shunt trip monitor. Make no mistake it will fail when the Fire Marshal and I test the system and the above condition exists.
 

One-eyed Jack

Senior Member
shunt trip monitor? could you describe this?

I posted a simple solution in an earlier post. It can be as simple as a cube relay powered off of the shunt trip power that is already in the control panel of the Ansul System on the hood. Switchleg the lights under the hood thru no contacts of cube relay. Owner/operator is made aware that if lights under hood do not come on, check breaker for shunt trip power. You will have marked it for him.;)
 

e57

Senior Member
I posted a simple solution in an earlier post. It can be as simple as a cube relay powered off of the shunt trip power that is already in the control panel of the Ansul System on the hood. Switchleg the lights under the hood thru no contacts of cube relay. Owner/operator is made aware that if lights under hood do not come on, check breaker for shunt trip power. You will have marked it for him.;)

FYI the lights in most manufactures designs do just that.

OK - now I think we are saying the same thing..... From an earlier post....
As mentioned - the power for the shunt is the same power for all other controls in the electrical portion of the ansul controls for monitoring and other function outside of the suppresion system - the one controlling fan, dampers, gas shut off, and other functions. If none of that is powered the NC/NO contacts for the FA change state sending a 'trouble' to the FA panel.
That is no different from adding a cube relay apart from using the LISTED COMPONENT already there.... :roll:

However I still see no requirement for it... If there is no FA system present - supervion does not seem to be required. If an inspector wanted one - he would have twist the arms of all involved. If he simply wanted an 'alert' or indicator that power was off to the controls - I could easily run a seperate locked 'on' circuit to through the listed controls using one of the listed - provided N/O contacts and run a 10" fire bell through it - but that too does not seem to be required. Both the controls and bell would be off during a power failure - as would the electrical items under the hood.
 

One-eyed Jack

Senior Member
FYI the lights in most manufactures designs do just that.

OK - now I think we are saying the same thing..... From an earlier post....
That is no different from adding a cube relay apart from using the LISTED COMPONENT already there.... :roll:

However I still see no requirement for it... If there is no FA system present - supervion does not seem to be required. If an inspector wanted one - he would have twist the arms of all involved. If he simply wanted an 'alert' or indicator that power was off to the controls - I could easily run a seperate locked 'on' circuit to through the listed controls using one of the listed - provided N/O contacts and run a 10" fire bell through it - but that too does not seem to be required. Both the controls and bell would be off during a power failure - as would the electrical items under the hood.

I agree we appear to be on the same page. I am going counter-clockwise as in racing and you are going clockwise.:D Alarm,NO. Alert that power is off on the shunt trip circuit,yes. If controls on hood not working is that alert,good to go. The only sticker would be if the exhaust fan shut down on shunt trip. That must remain on.
 
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gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
The "fire extinguishing" or "Suppression" system is TOTALLY MECHANICAL.... And requires no power to operate - at all. Cables pull a pin out of a valve... Electrical power is not required to operate the suppression portion - the suppression portion - operated mechanically by them cables - operate several contacts as well....

Lets stop right here:
  • Totally mechanical means of operating suppression system
No battery back-up, or supervision required..... That is the suppression system - it is stand-alone... Operated by fusible link - or hand release of spring-loaded cable....

This is generally speaking true. But note your first attachment in post #10 where it talks about the "electric pull station".

See also your second attachment which discusses "thermostatically" activated detection.

Clearly folks out there are putting together systems where one or both activating means are electric.

Next subject...
If there is a Supervised FA system in the building or otherwise required - it needs to get run to the provided contacts provided on the "Suppression System" - those are supervised... The contacts open the system goes into alarm mode...

Please note - they are two separate things.... (in pink and green) Also note the big IF. And the "Where"... There are places "Where" an FA system is not required....

OK, no significant quibbles here, although the FA contact is usually close on alarm with supervision. A wire break shouldn't be interpreted as an alarm, IMHO.

If I implied that you had to have a fire alarm system to provide supervision I'll say outright that's not the case. You can provide supervision without a full blown FACP. You could use a communicator like the Silent Knight 5104B. Or some other method acceptable to the AHJ.

Now the AIR... A different subject, and dependant on design, and conditions... Sometimes - depending on conditions - fans would be going on, or off, and dampers closing, make-up air shutting off etc.

All of those items are automatically initiated by the fire extinguishing system - and happen outside of that system.

Some of those are supervised - if required - but happen outside of the fire extinguishing system...

I can't find anything about the power for those controls that are activated being supervised...

If the various air systems operate via contactor or relay powered through the relays in the mechanical control head you're probably OK as long as everything is wired "failsafe". I'd still point to NFPA 96-1999 section 10.7 as suggesting back up power for sure and supervision depending on configuration.

And now - "Fuel Shut-off"

Again - All of those items are automatically initiated by the fire extinguishing system - and happen outside of that system. There is no mention of supervision or battery back up...

Now I think I know what you're gonna say - without power - it might not automatically happen... In a power failure the gas usually shuts off... (by solenoid which required power.) And there is no power for electrical heat creating items.... But it also does not seem to say it needs to be supervised either...

Granted - I don't do these everyday - but I have not been hit for a shunt trip yet...

It all depends on the extent of the power failure. For electrically operated gas valves you are almost certainly correct. For electrically powered appliances on a shunt trip, if the shunt power fails you would have a problem.

I agree that shunt trip supervision is unusual. It's not explicitly required, but could be implied via NFPA 96-1999 section 10.7. In my experience with one AHJ this was certainly the case. Since it appears at least debatable, perhaps the solution is to go the the NFPA committee for 17A or 96 and suggest that the requirement be made explicit.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Simple fix: use contactors, which will drop out without power. Cheaper, too, especially in retrofits/updates to existing systems.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
Simple fix: use contactors, which will drop out without power. Cheaper, too, especially in retrofits/updates to existing systems.

Kinda what I was driving at in a roundabout way. Quick check on pricing:
200 amp breaker = $432
200 amp contactor = $245 (less enclosure)
 

220/221

Senior Member
Location
AZ
The concept is, in case of a fire, someone pushes/pulls a lever/cable system that mechanically starts the release of the suppression chemical, turns off any fuel or heat source, turns off incoming air supply and turns ON the vent.

The mechanical trigger on a simple system will have a couple sets of contacts. 2 NO's and 2 NC's.

Run the stuff you want you want to shut off (gas valves, make up air and any electric heating components) when the trigger is pulled thru the NC contacts.

Run the stuff you want to turn on (vent, possibly alarm) thru the NO contacts.

If it's a simple system with a SP switch controlling the vent, you will need to also feed the switchleg from one of the NO contacts so even if the vent is switched off, the vent turns on when the ansul system is activatedactivated.
 
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