e57
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco, CA
Oh - and that is IF an FA sytem is in the building - not all buildings require a suprvised FA system here....
Oh - and that is IF an FA sytem is in the building - not all buildings require a suprvised FA system here....
whoever is pushing this is not reading the smoke install instructions carefully. This is also a monitored circuit in that it must be on a unswitched circuit. One the is normally on all the time such as a lighting circuit. If the lights go out you will undoubtedly notice it and fix.gadfly,
It's not much different than all the homes that have 120v interconnected smokes, and in
some areas they must be on their own circuit. ( no battery back-up type ) and people
sleep there !
OK, so putting aside for the moment the issue of the shunt, if there is no fire alarm panel in the building, how do you meet the requirements of NFPA 17A regarding reserve power/supervision of the manual means?
Come to think of it, in this situation with all electric appliances you could still cook and have no protection/supervision at all if the circuit feeding the ANSUL goes down!!
whoever is pushing this is not reading the smoke install instructions carefully. This is also a monitored circuit in that it must be on a unswitched circuit. One the is normally on all the time such as a lighting circuit. If the lights go out you will undoubtedly notice it and fix.
Fire suppression for the hood is required, and if the HVAC system is ducted (Not all are) dampers are required - and that is all... Unless the building otherwise requires an FA system by building type - then there isn't one - this is common in smaller stand alone restaurants or buildings...OK, so putting aside for the moment the issue of the shunt, if there is no fire alarm panel in the building, how do you meet the requirements of NFPA 17A regarding reserve power/supervision of the manual means?
Come to think of it, in this situation with all electric appliances you could still cook and have no protection/supervision at all if the circuit feeding the ANSUL goes down!!
Fire suppression for the hood is required, and if the HVAC system is ducted (Not all are) dampers are required - and that is all... Unless the building otherwise requires an FA system by building type - then there isn't one - this is common in smaller stand alone restaurants or buildings...
You should also see NFPA 96 if applicable. See page 21.
Please note - they are two separate things.... (in pink and green) Also note the big IF. And the "Where"... There are places "Where" an FA system is not required....
10.6.2Where a fire alarm signaling system is serving the occupancy
where the extinguishing system is located, the activation
of the automatic fire-extinguishing system shall activate
the fire alarm signaling system.
Again - All of those items are automatically initiated by the fire extinguishing system - and happen outside of that system. There is no mention of supervision or battery back up...
10.4 Fuel Shutoff.
10.4.1Upon activation of any fire-extinguishing system for a
cooking operation, all sources of fuel and electric power that
produce heat to all equipment requiring protection by that
system shall automatically shut off.
10.4.2Steam supplied from an external source shall not be
required to automatically shut off.
10.4.3Any gas appliance not requiring protection, but located
under the same ventilating equipment, shall also automatically
shut off upon activation of any extinguishing system.
10.4.4 Shutoff devices shall require manual reset.
It varies mfg to mfg but the intent is to have it on a circuit that you would notice is off immediately. The lighting is the most obvious,but not mandatory.Jack, I'm sure it says not to put on a switched circuit, but, does it say the rest ? i know it's
a good way to do it.
The "fire extinguishing" or "Suppression" system is TOTALLY MECHANICAL.... And requires no power to operate - at all. Cables pull a pin out of a valve... Electrical power is not required to operate the suppression portion - the suppression portion - operated mechanically by them cables - operate several contacts as well....
Lets stop right here:
No battery back-up, or supervision required..... That is the suppression system - it is stand-alone... Operated by fusible link - or hand release of spring-loaded cable....
- Totally mechanical means of operating suppression system
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Next subject...
If there is a Supervised FA system in the building or otherwise required - it needs to get run to the provided contacts provided on the "Suppression System" - those are supervised... The contacts open the system goes into alarm mode...
Please note - they are two separate things.... (in pink and green) Also note the big IF. And the "Where"... There are places "Where" an FA system is not required....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now the AIR... A different subject, and dependant on design, and conditions... Sometimes - depending on conditions - fans would be going on, or off, and dampers closing, make-up air shutting off etc.
All of those items are automatically initiated by the fire extinguishing system - and happen outside of that system.
Some of those are supervised - if required - but happen outside of the fire extinguishing system...
I can't find anything about the power for those controls that are activated being supervised...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And now - "Fuel Shut-off"
Again - All of those items are automatically initiated by the fire extinguishing system - and happen outside of that system. There is no mention of supervision or battery back up...
Now I think I know what you're gonna say - without power - it might not automatically happen... In a power failure the gas usually shuts off... (by solenoid which required power.) And there is no power for electrical heat creating items.... But it also does not seem to say it needs to be supervised either...
Granted - I don't do these everyday - but I have not been hit for a shunt trip yet...
shunt trip monitor? could you describe this?
I posted a simple solution in an earlier post. It can be as simple as a cube relay powered off of the shunt trip power that is already in the control panel of the Ansul System on the hood. Switchleg the lights under the hood thru no contacts of cube relay. Owner/operator is made aware that if lights under hood do not come on, check breaker for shunt trip power. You will have marked it for him.
That is no different from adding a cube relay apart from using the LISTED COMPONENT already there.... :roll:As mentioned - the power for the shunt is the same power for all other controls in the electrical portion of the ansul controls for monitoring and other function outside of the suppresion system - the one controlling fan, dampers, gas shut off, and other functions. If none of that is powered the NC/NO contacts for the FA change state sending a 'trouble' to the FA panel.
FYI the lights in most manufactures designs do just that.
OK - now I think we are saying the same thing..... From an earlier post....
That is no different from adding a cube relay apart from using the LISTED COMPONENT already there.... :roll:
However I still see no requirement for it... If there is no FA system present - supervion does not seem to be required. If an inspector wanted one - he would have twist the arms of all involved. If he simply wanted an 'alert' or indicator that power was off to the controls - I could easily run a seperate locked 'on' circuit to through the listed controls using one of the listed - provided N/O contacts and run a 10" fire bell through it - but that too does not seem to be required. Both the controls and bell would be off during a power failure - as would the electrical items under the hood.
The "fire extinguishing" or "Suppression" system is TOTALLY MECHANICAL.... And requires no power to operate - at all. Cables pull a pin out of a valve... Electrical power is not required to operate the suppression portion - the suppression portion - operated mechanically by them cables - operate several contacts as well....
Lets stop right here:
No battery back-up, or supervision required..... That is the suppression system - it is stand-alone... Operated by fusible link - or hand release of spring-loaded cable....
- Totally mechanical means of operating suppression system
Next subject...
If there is a Supervised FA system in the building or otherwise required - it needs to get run to the provided contacts provided on the "Suppression System" - those are supervised... The contacts open the system goes into alarm mode...
Please note - they are two separate things.... (in pink and green) Also note the big IF. And the "Where"... There are places "Where" an FA system is not required....
Now the AIR... A different subject, and dependant on design, and conditions... Sometimes - depending on conditions - fans would be going on, or off, and dampers closing, make-up air shutting off etc.
All of those items are automatically initiated by the fire extinguishing system - and happen outside of that system.
Some of those are supervised - if required - but happen outside of the fire extinguishing system...
I can't find anything about the power for those controls that are activated being supervised...
And now - "Fuel Shut-off"
Again - All of those items are automatically initiated by the fire extinguishing system - and happen outside of that system. There is no mention of supervision or battery back up...
Now I think I know what you're gonna say - without power - it might not automatically happen... In a power failure the gas usually shuts off... (by solenoid which required power.) And there is no power for electrical heat creating items.... But it also does not seem to say it needs to be supervised either...
Granted - I don't do these everyday - but I have not been hit for a shunt trip yet...
Simple fix: use contactors, which will drop out without power. Cheaper, too, especially in retrofits/updates to existing systems.