plastic water pipe

[kentriolinda]

I am working on a house where the water main to house is plastic and all water pipe though out house is plastic except for approx. 12" for hot and for cold at water heater (gas) so my question is would runing a ground wire be still be required for the water pipes to the gas?

 

[kwired]

250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel.

(A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.

You do not have a metal water piping system if all you have is a couple short lengths of metallic pipe.

Now consider this:

(B) Other Metal Piping. Where installed in or attached to a building or structure, a metal piping system(s), including gas piping, that is likely to become energized shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with 250.122, using the rating of the circuit that is likely to energize the piping system(s). The equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that is likely to energize the piping shall be permitted to serve as the bonding means. The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.

 

[infinity]

Are you asking about bonding the 12" water pipes to the gas piping?

 

[rwreuter]

i always hated this situation.....obviously this is a pvc (pex) water plumbing system. i was always afraid NOT to bond that 12" of copper in the house because who knows what inspector would go behind you.

in the long run it is cheaper to bond it than to get a fail and have to go back and redo it. there was a development that i wired on a consistent basis with these same situations and the inspector was one that i knew and he didn't require it...(he knew his job).

concerning the gas piping....(lets say for argument that the house is all copper) if the gas piping was along the way to the water piping i would use one run of copper and bond them both at the same time. which from reading your post is what you are referring to. yes you can if you like, but in this situation it is not necessary.

though, like i said, it may be cheaper to just do it (especially if they are right next to each other), your only cost would be a clamp and perhaps a foot or two of copper wire. small in comparison to a trip back, or the aggravation of arguing with the inspector on the validity of his call.


rw

 

[kwired]

i always hated this situation.....obviously this is a pvc (pex) water plumbing system. i was always afraid NOT to bond that 12" of copper in the house because who knows what inspector would go behind you.

in the long run it is cheaper to bond it than to get a fail and have to go back and redo it. there was a development that i wired on a consistent basis with these same situations and the inspector was one that i knew and he didn't require it...(he knew his job).

concerning the gas piping....(lets say for argument that the house is all copper) if the gas piping was along the way to the water piping i would use one run of copper and bond them both at the same time. which from reading your post is what you are referring to. yes you can if you like, but in this situation it is not necessary.

though, like i said, it may be cheaper to just do it (especially if they are right next to each other), your only cost would be a clamp and perhaps a foot or two of copper wire. small in comparison to a trip back, or the aggravation of arguing with the inspector on the validity of his call.


rw

Any inspector uneducated enough to require this to be bonded better at least be consistant and require bonding of any metallic plumbing fixtures also because they are no different. If not likely to become energized there is no point. Now if there is 20 or 50 feet of metallic water pipe and the rest of the system is non metallic it could be a judgement call as to wether to bond it or not but should not even be an issue on a 12 inch isolated piece of pipe.

 

[kentriolinda]

yes that is part of what I am asking.

 

[kentriolinda]

That is exactly what I ended up doing that is bonding gas pipe at water heater and continued up to bond hot and cold even though it might not be required. thank you all for your input And I to believe the extra clamp is worth not having to return for possible correction.

 

[infinity]

That is exactly what I ended up doing that is bonding gas pipe at water heater and continued up to bond hot and cold even though it might not be required. thank you all for your input And I to believe the extra clamp is worth not having to return for possible correction.

I understand that not returning for an extra clamp but isn't it just as important for the inspector to inspect using the appropriate code?

 

[jxofaltrds]

That is exactly what I ended up doing that is bonding gas pipe at water heater and continued up to bond hot and cold even though it might not be required. thank you all for your input And I to believe the extra clamp is worth not having to return for possible correction.

In your example no bonding at the hot water tank is required. Now as to the gas lines maybe. As stated above if likely to be energized. If you have a gas furnace or a high efficency hot water tank then the egc would be enough.

Assuming no CSST.

 

[rwreuter]

the inspectors point of argument....

i don't know if there is 10' in the ground or not, i can't see it and if you want me to believe it is there, dig a hole and let me see.


how and why would you argue, not worth the time, i just run it.



rw

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Not to hijack the thread but at what point should an inspector expect you to bond the water pipe. If the piping is plastic coming in and the house is 80% plastic and 20% metallic.- then what. How about 50% plastic and 50% metallic. 20% plastic and 80% metallic.

You get my drift. It is a tough call. NC has arbitrarily uses the 51% rule. If the piping is metallic for 51% or greater then it needs bonding. What say you all on this.

 

[Volta]

Not to hijack the thread but at what point should an inspector expect you to bond the water pipe. If the piping is plastic coming in and the house is 80% plastic and 20% metallic.- then what. How about 50% plastic and 50% metallic. 20% plastic and 80% metallic.

You get my drift. It is a tough call. NC has arbitrarily uses the 51% rule. If the piping is metallic for 51% or greater then it needs bonding. What say you all on this.

In our area, 10', official or not. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Nobody ever seems to care about the metal waste piping system, though. :roll:

the inspectors point of argument....

i don't know if there is 10' in the ground or not, i can't see it and if you want me to believe it is there, dig a hole and let me see.

how and why would you argue, not worth the time, i just run it.

rw

Meaning that sometimes your inspector wants proof that you needed to connect to the water entrance? If you have done that, I don't know why the proof would matter, you'll still need a supplementel electrode(s).

For an electrode purpose, it may be hard to prove the length of metallic pipe, but to bond interior water pipe systems, it is easy to see what material is being used.

 

[rwreuter]

Meaning that sometimes your inspector wants proof that you needed to connect to the water entrance? If you have done that, I don't know why the proof would matter, you'll still need a supplementel electrode(s).

For an electrode purpose, it may be hard to prove the length of metallic pipe, but to bond interior water pipe systems, it is easy to see what material is being used.[/QUOTE]

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no.

inspector: walks into the house, there is no copper, at least none can be seen anywhere, maybe 3" near where the HW tank will go. he looks around the house and finds nothing bonding the water piping system. FAIL. because he thinks there is 10' of copper feeding the house. FAIL until electrician can PROVE otherwise.

electrician: obviously there is no copper in the house, but if you go into the crawl space where the water came into the house there is copper, you see about 2 feet of copper.

electrician: is there 10' of copper there? don't know, but you understand the purpose of the bonding of the system and this isn't it. you don't bond it. FAIL.

electricians boss: cheaper to run it to far reaches of the house than to send a crew back to fix it, and in reality it is cheaper than argueing with an inspector, you will piss him off and then there will be more nit picking.

me: i am stupid, i call him up on the phone and say hey what is the deal. FAIL


rw

ps....either way you are wasting money, it is just which will cost less, argueing with the inspector or installing the wire and clamp.

 

[kwired]

how often is there a metallic service water pipe entering a building and it converts to non metallic before having at least 10 feet in the ground? If a repair is needed on an old water line around here it is either replaced with the same as original or converted to a nonmetallic. If it bursts just outside basement wall it is most likely to be replaced through the wall also.

My point is if metal water service leaving the structure it likely has at least 10 feet outside. Water pipe can have resistance tested just like a ground rod if you do not wish to dig it up to find out.