Hot work permits

[brother]

Just had a discussion with one of my friends and it sounds like he's got some supervisors that want to 'pass' the buck sort of speak.

They have recently started trying to work under the NFPA 70e, and there is a project where the guy that is over that department claims it can not be shutdown. It supplies some alarms/computer interface in a hospital, basically a HUGE server room.
Basically suggesting that he falls under the 'hot work' exceptions of life safety etc..

My friend let his boss know about the situation, and that maybe a hot work permit needed to be filled out. Heres the 'buck passing', they have a form that has 'REQUESTOR' at the top, and they want my friend to fill this out and sign. My friend says no, because he is NOT the one requesting the work be done hot. He is willing to explain to them in writing of the work that needs to be done, (since they are not electricians), but the initiator of the 'Hot work permit' is suppose to be from the person claiming the equipment can't be shut down. They can get the guy over the department/server room to sign off on it and check off the exceptions is what my friend suggested.

His boss says 'no' this is our form and its the lead guy who is suppose to fill out the form.
They are locking horns on this issue. How do you go and explain to your boss through common sense that the 'requestor' of a hot work permit is suppose to be the person making the claim that something 'Can NOT be shutdown because it meets the criteria of osha exceptions'.??? Sounds like they just want to 'shift' the liability' of this work on the workerbee!

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Simple, just tell the NO

 

[jeremysterling]

IMO, the REQUESTOR is the one who will wear the VR gloves.

 

[cadpoint]

Their scared to put up a notice that their system needs to shout down and they could care less about human safety verses getting a bit of information.

 

[jaylectricity]

I don't usually work in that scale and scope of work, but if it were me I'd say, "If you want me to work on this hot, YOU have to get OSHA to approve this."

 

[hillbilly1]

What exactly are they wanting done? Install a breaker on a live buss? Pull wire in a live section with exposed busses?

 

[kwired]

If so important that it can't be shut down it should have some backup system if it would unintentionally go down.

Scheduled shutdown of almost anything is easier to manage than a random breakdown.

Someone does not want to do their part and wants to blame someone else for anything that goes wrong.

 

[eric9822]

IMHO the requestor is the person that wants the work done live, not the person doing the work. There are very limited circumstances that justify an energized work permit. Alarms and computers sounds like a work around could be found. It may be inconvenient and expensive but neither of those is a justification for live work.

 

[hillbilly1]

IMHO the requestor is the person that wants the work done live, not the person doing the work. There are very limited circumstances that justify an energized work permit. Alarms and computers sounds like a work around could be found. It may be inconvenient and expensive but neither of those is a justification for live work.

We have a no live work policy, and the requestor is the person who is doing the work asking permission to wave the rule. If it is working near live parts that can be sheilded, a live work permit may be allowed, but if it is actual contact with live parts, Chances are slim to none that it will be allowed.

 

[eric9822]

We have a no live work policy, and the requestor is the person who is doing the work asking permission to wave the rule. If it is working near live parts that can be sheilded, a live work permit may be allowed, but if it is actual contact with live parts, Chances are slim to none that it will be allowed.

If that is your policy and it works then I am not going to argue. I still think the requestor should be the actual requestor. I have not done live work in years but when I did it was always at someone elses request. Even when we did live work on a regular basis I never went into it thinking "I want to do this live", I did it because I was asked to or directed to.

 

[brother]

What exactly are they wanting done? Install a breaker on a live buss? Pull wire in a live section with exposed busses?

Yes, its basically just 2 breakers on a live buss that need installing. The breakers apparently have went bad, and its a slight possibility that the buss may have an issue. Wont know until they have a look. and possibly relocate some wires in the panel.

 

[brother]

If that is your policy and it works then I am not going to argue. I still think the requestor should be the actual requestor. I have not done live work in years but when I did it was always at someone elses request. Even when we did live work on a regular basis I never went into it thinking "I want to do this live", I did it because I was asked to or directed to.

Thats exactly my point!! the person claiming it cant be shut down, or asking someone to work it live, they are the ones that have to justify the hot work permit and sign it. I just dont see how the person doing the work is to initiate the hot work permit basically asking 'Can I work live and risk my life uneccessarily??'

 

[brother]

IMO, the REQUESTOR is the one who will wear the VR gloves.

Can you explain your comment?

 

[Rockyd]

Just had a discussion with one of my friends and it sounds like he's got some supervisors that want to 'pass' the buck sort of speak.

They have recently started trying to work under the NFPA 70e, and there is a project where the guy that is over that department claims it can not be shutdown. It supplies some alarms/computer interface in a hospital, basically a HUGE server room.
Basically suggesting that he falls under the 'hot work' exceptions of life safety etc..

My friend let his boss know about the situation, and that maybe a hot work permit needed to be filled out. Heres the 'buck passing', they have a form that has 'REQUESTOR' at the top, and they want my friend to fill this out and sign. My friend says no, because he is NOT the one requesting the work be done hot. He is willing to explain to them in writing of the work that needs to be done, (since they are not electricians), but the initiator of the 'Hot work permit' is suppose to be from the person claiming the equipment can't be shut down. They can get the guy over the department/server room to sign off on it and check off the exceptions is what my friend suggested.

His boss says 'no' this is our form and its the lead guy who is suppose to fill out the form.
They are locking horns on this issue. How do you go and explain to your boss through common sense that the 'requestor' of a hot work permit is suppose to be the person making the claim that something 'Can NOT be shutdown because it meets the criteria of osha exceptions'.??? Sounds like they just want to 'shift' the liability' of this work on the workerbee!

When it gets down to nuts and bolts, It is best to go with the "chain of command".

When we are working on the Alaska Pipeline, they have a specification book that has all the call outs. when events are such that your work needs to be done in de-energized state, you schedule around their schedule. While we are at it, we are perform All electrical work in accordance with sections of the NEC, and Federal OSHA 29 CFR 1910 Subpart S and 29 CFR 1926 Subpart K.

Easiest view, maybe start with NEC 90.1 in it's entirety, and NEC 100 definition of Qualified Person. Don't become cannon fodder at their behest!

There is a reason for a shop's lawyer, and insurance underwriter, to earn their pay.

Never seen a system - that cannot be shutdown...If it can't, and someone dies because it does, there will be hell to pay!

 

[Dave58er]

Yes, its basically just 2 breakers on a live buss that need installing. The breakers apparently have went bad, and its a slight possibility that the buss may have an issue. Wont know until they have a look. and possibly relocate some wires in the panel.

The old breakers were already removed -hot?- or they are to be removed and then replaced?

Is this a panel or a switchboard?

It seems very out of line to work on something live when there is a possibility that it has damage regardless of who is willing to sign off on it.

 

[hillbilly1]

Yes, its basically just 2 breakers on a live buss that need installing. The breakers apparently have went bad, and its a slight possibility that the buss may have an issue. Wont know until they have a look. and possibly relocate some wires in the panel.

At our company I would deny that live work request, with possible buss damage comes possible insulator damage. Way too dangerous to do hot.

 

[jdsmith]

It supplies some alarms/computer interface in a hospital, basically a HUGE server room.
Basically suggesting that he falls under the 'hot work' exceptions of life safety etc..

Typically these computer rooms have redundant UPS systems, redundant panelboards, and redundant power supplies in the individual servers, telephone switches, and other equipment. Computer monitors typically have only one input but it's not a problem to unplug them and plug them into the other source.

I had to coordinate an outage very similar to what you're describing in a refinery control house to change obsolete UPS's. It took a lot of time to reconstruct the panel schedules and trace circuits since the documentation had deteriorated, but we were able to change the UPS's safely and keep all of the DCS equipment and servers online during the UPS work. It can be done.

You may need to approach higher level personnel of your client that can better understand what a risk it represents to have live work conducted within their facility. If you're dealing with the person who would have to coordinate the shutdown, it represents a lot of work that he doesn't want to do. His boss may have a different perspective if the boss can put the business risk and safety record implications into perspective.

We have one large contractor whose hot work procedure says that the client facility plant manager has to sign the hot work form - this is enough of a motivating factor for me as an engineer to develop a plan to shut down the equipment.

 

[hillbilly1]

I installed a larger UPS for a major insurance call center in which we scheduled a shut down, they transfered operations overseas to their call centers there while we had their local systems down. It can be done, it just may not be easy or cheap, but then an unexpected complete shutdown while working it hot can be massively more expensive and prolonged while a new panel or gear is installed replacing the one that was blown up, along with possible loss of life and limb!

 

[zbang]

Are there any other things that might be done during a shutdown? Sometimes you can 'sell' the shutdown by including all the other things that might need one in the next year or so (PM work, additional circuits, even, gasp, breaker testing if applicable). Maybe even identify HVAC work that should be done. They, too, can take things down if the electrical system is off.

BTW, I also agree that the manager is the Requestor. Me? No, I want it dead. You're the one that wants it live, you sign the request. The other question to ask them is if something should go wrong (live or dead), what are their plans to continue operations? Panel blows up and they're out of service for much longer than the planned shutdown would be. How do they handle that?

 

[ceb58]

I ask my self, if a squirrel shorts out the transformer or a drunk takes out the pole will this outage cause a giant explosion or will thousands of people die? If the answer is no then there is no reason it cannot be shut down to work on it. It may be inconvenient but every one goes home and there are no blown up panels.