When to replace original distribution gear

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BrianMuir

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Hi,
I'm new to the forum, and have spend some time reading old threads and have picked up some things relevant to my projects. Thanks guys!

One topic I did not see discussed is the subject of life expectancy of distribution gear.

I have a client with a community recreation center, built in 1978. The project involves installation of a permanent standby generator. The electrical room is in great shape for a building of this vintage. Downstream of the meter we have a splitter and then a row of ten or so fuseable switches, (I think Federal Pioneer, which feed various panels and equipment scattered around the building.

All the gear on the surface looks in great shape, and there are no reports of existing problems.

I discussed this with my distributor and he recommends replacing all the switches with an integrated PDC, simply because of the age of the gear. His argument is that over time the thermal cycling degrades the fuseholders leading to eventual failure. I welcome any comments or references to support this claim.

The PDC is certainly a cleaner solution, and will free up space for the transfer switch. The quote on the gear is $5K. Also, the local inspector is insisting on proper safety labels for all commercial projects so I will arrange an Arc Flash + coordination review. I expect the new gear to have better max fault current ratings (I understand also some downside if the breakers are slower than the old fuses). The clients budget for the project will support this upgrade.

Need a second opinion! Rip out the old stuff or keep it?
 
friendlyfire said:
Hi,
I'm new to the forum, and have spend some time reading old threads and have picked up some things relevant to my projects. Thanks guys!

One topic I did not see discussed is the subject of life expectancy of distribution gear.

I have a client with a community recreation center, built in 1978. The project involves installation of a permanent standby generator. The electrical room is in great shape for a building of this vintage. Downstream of the meter we have a splitter and then a row of ten or so fuseable switches, (I think Federal Pioneer, which feed various panels and equipment scattered around the building.

All the gear on the surface looks in great shape, and there are no reports of existing problems.

I discussed this with my distributor and he recommends replacing all the switches with an integrated PDC, simply because of the age of the gear. His argument is that over time the thermal cycling degrades the fuseholders leading to eventual failure. I welcome any comments or references to support this claim.

The PDC is certainly a cleaner solution, and will free up space for the transfer switch. The quote on the gear is $5K. Also, the local inspector is insisting on proper safety labels for all commercial projects so I will arrange an Arc Flash + coordination review. I expect the new gear to have better max fault current ratings (I understand also some downside if the breakers are slower than the old fuses). The clients budget for the project will support this upgrade.
Need a second opinion! Rip out the old stuff or keep it?
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That's all you need to know! Tell him you need the space.
 
friendlyfire said:
All the gear on the surface looks in great shape, and there are no reports of existing problems.
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On the surface it looks great, but some real testing and maintenence will tell the true story. That said, they sure do not stuff like they used to, nearly everything the OEM's build now is dictated by the accountants, made overseas, using the cheapest materials possible, and not designed to last as long as the old stuff was. Makes sense for thier sales.

I have spent 20 years maintaining and testing switchgear and when properly maintained the old stuff will last forever. I get more failure/emergency calls on newer equipment than the older stuff.

friendlyfire said:
I discussed this with my distributor and he recommends replacing all the switches with an integrated PDC, simply because of the age of the gear.
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Of course he does, that is his job.

friendlyfire said:
His argument is that over time the thermal cycling degrades the fuseholders leading to eventual failure. I welcome any comments or references to support this claim.
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Thermal imaging or low resistace testing as part of a regular maintenence program will reveal any issues here and the replacement clips are easily obtained.

friendlyfire said:
Need a second opinion! Rip out the old stuff or keep it?
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It all comes down to your customer, if they neglect the gear replace it and then replace it again in about 5 years, and so on. Or keep it and develop a real prevenative maintenence program per NFPA 70B or ANSI/NETA recommendations (Which is required to be doen per the NFPA 70E anyways)
 
A few thoughts.

$5000 is not that big of a deal in the over all scheme of things sometimes.

I would not be replacing the switchgear mostly on the basis of the recommendation of a guy who has a financial interest in you doing so.

1978 is not all that long ago. Good switchgear lasts a long time.

It might be somewhat easier to do the arc flash and short circuit analysis, and whatever that analysis shows is required, on newer equipment.

New switchgear often has features that make it "better" in some ways than older switchgear, but they are sometimes not as heavily built as they once were.

IMO, your obligation is to your customer. Sit down with him and go over the pros and cons of replacement and the two of you can come to some kind of agreement.

Personally, based solely on what you have stated, my inclination is that the old stuff stays, primarily because it is likely to be less disruptive.
 
petersonra said:
A few thoughts.

$5000 is not that big of a deal in the over all scheme of things sometimes.

I would not be replacing the switchgear mostly on the basis of the recommendation of a guy who has a financial interest in you doing so.

1978 is not all that long ago. Good switchgear lasts a long time.

It might be somewhat easier to do the arc flash and short circuit analysis, and whatever that analysis shows is required, on newer equipment.

New switchgear often has features that make it "better" in some ways than older switchgear, but they are sometimes not as heavily built as they once were.

IMO, your obligation is to your customer. Sit down with him and go over the pros and cons of replacement and the two of you can come to some kind of agreement.

Personally, based solely on what you have stated, my inclination is that the old stuff stays, primarily because it is likely to be less disruptive.
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I agree with everything Bob said. One thing to add...for me its a no brainer when the gear is so old that the owner can't get parts anymore!
 
etown said:
I agree with everything Bob said. One thing to add...for me its a no brainer when the gear is so old that the owner can't get parts anymore!
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Not able to get parts and not knowing where to get parts are different. I stock over 5 million obsolete switchgear parts. We call 1978 the "new stuff"
 
petersonra said:
New switchgear often has features that make it "better" in some ways than older switchgear, but they are sometimes not as heavily built as they once were.
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Most modern features can be added to existing stuff.

petersonra said:
IMO, your obligation is to your customer. Sit down with him and go over the pros and cons of replacement and the two of you can come to some kind of agreement.
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Exactly, that is how you build real relationships with your customers, be the expert, provide the pros and cons of all options, and let them decide what is best for them.
 
Another advantage is the green impact. That old gear may end up in a landfill. All of the raw materials copper, steel, plastic, etc in the new stuff needs to ne mined and manufactured, which takes energy, which must be produced.
 
I worked for Square D (Schneider Electric) which owns Federal Pioneer up there. The mfg recommendation was 30 years for well maintained swgr. Of course, this is coming from those who would want to sell you something new, but that is what the mfg would recommend. Take it for what it's worth.
 
ok, thanks for all the input. I expected a split decision.
Note that I am the consulting engineer and have no fiscal interest in either path. The interests of the client are the only thing that matter to me here. Except for the space issue I think my preference is to recommend he have the existing gear inspected and repaired as necessary, unless the arc flash study reveals other reasons to upgrade.

I do not think there has been any maintenance program on these switches but I will inquire.

thanks again for the well formed responses.

Photo Attached for your interest. Note that the three switches top central are more recent. The gear I am discussing is along the bottom row, and more of this outside the frame left. It looks in good shape on the surface, but as one responder points out there could be problems lurking inside.
 
I usually wait until it's at least this old before I worry about it.
DSCF1786.jpg


Actually I believe you last post is a good course of action. I have seen new gear that needed replacing and some very old that still performed its duty well.
 
I have several projects where we replaced "old" gear. I recall one (actually several) in particular. How it hadn't blown off the wall years before is beyond comprehension. Yet it keeps on keeping on!!!

I have one project now where we are replacing FPE panel boards in the wing of a retirement center. The fault current of the main has got to be well in excess of what the gear could handle and ditto for the sub panels. The main gear is located in the typical mechanical room with water pipes, water heaters, generator sitting open in the middle of the room, etc. We plan on re-feeding the wing from a new service to get it off the main gear. At least this wing would be isolated. But how far do you go and where does one stop? At least most of the recent projects we convinced the client to go with SquareD panels and mains.

I've been around in the industry for over 40 years and it amazes me how few nasty failures I've seen! Actually, few of any kind.

RC
 
SG-1 said:
I am impressed. It has been years since I have seen that much in one place. Westinghouse built over 1 million units of DHP before the two high vaccum took over.
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Those photos just showed a few aisles of one of our warehouses. We have 14 locations..

The warehouse shown is huge, when people visit they are always amazed, we use motorcycles and golf carts to check stock. The question we get asked most is "Where did you hide the ark?" (Referencing the last scene of raiders of the lost ark)

SG-1 said:
Any DVP in inventory ?
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Yes, a bunch. i also have a ton of DHP-VR's and also build our own VCB replacements.
 
zog said:
Those photos just showed a few aisles of one of our warehouses. We have 14 locations..

The warehouse shown is huge, when people visit they are always amazed, we use motorcycles and golf carts to check stock. The question we get asked most is "Where did you hide the ark?" (Referencing the last scene of raiders of the lost ark)


Yes, a bunch. i also have a ton of DHP-VR's and also build our own VCB replacements.
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You got it going on, don't open the ark !!
 
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