FPE Troubles

[garisilver]

I got a call to go look at a FPE panel.
2 weeks ago, the homeowner replaced a 2/p 50a FPE breaker that fed another small FPE panel. The breaker had failed. It would not reset, the handle just flopped back and forth. The new breaker lasted a week. It failed the same way. He replaced it again. That one almost lasted a week. Same story.
I went there yesterday. Checked all the connections, looked and sniffed around a bit, and then replaced the breaker with a used one I had sitting on the shelf. The sub panel amped out about 25-28 amps on both legs.
It's all single pole 15 and 20 amp breakers. No heavy appliances other than a garage refrigerator.
We're all holding our collective breaths, waiting to see if this breaker lasts. I can accept that the original 1970's breaker failed, but I'm at a complete loss to explain the failure of 2 brand new breakers in such a short period of time.
I hate the fact that I couldn't find anything wrong and don't know where to go with finding the cause. I have a lot of trouble believing that there were 2 defective brand new breakers. Anyone have any thoughts on my dilemma?

 

[charlietuna]

The amperages and number of breakers tell you nothing ! You need to determine the load the effected breaker is carrying. Just because it is an FPE breaker doesn't mean anything, there are millions of them across America operating as designed every day. Do you own an amprobe or data recorder ?

 

[readydave8]

counterfeit breakers?

high amp fault destroying breakers?

repeated resetting a tripped breaker until it fails?

 

[zog]

I got a call to go look at a FPE panel.
2 weeks ago, the homeowner replaced a 2/p 50a FPE breaker that fed another small FPE panel. The breaker had failed. It would not reset, the handle just flopped back and forth. The new breaker lasted a week. It failed the same way. He replaced it again. That one almost lasted a week. Same story.

What makes you think the breaker "Failed"? Sounds like it is doing it's job.

I went there yesterday. Checked all the connections, looked and sniffed around a bit, and then replaced the breaker with a used one I had sitting on the shelf.

"Off the shelf"? You tested it I hope.

We're all holding our collective breaths, waiting to see if this breaker lasts.

By "lasts" do you mean not trip? If you used an old breaker off the shelf and did not test it first there is a chance it will never trip.

I hate the fact that I couldn't find anything wrong and don't know where to go with finding the cause. I have a lot of trouble believing that there were 2 defective brand new breakers. Anyone have any thoughts on my dilemma?

A fault?

 

[benaround]

gari,

Looking and sniffing ? Let's try a little electrical work !

turn off 2p 50 FPE, remove wires from the terminals

pull all the breakers out of the sub panel to inspect the busses

make sure the feeders are in the lugs with all strands in the lug(s)

check the feeders for knicks or any sharp edges they might be in contact with

check both ends of the neutral for positive connections

at the same time that you are doing this, ask the H.O. if any work has been done in the
house recently where nails or screws were used.

if all the above is good, it's time to find out where all the branch circuits go, their location
is of more value than their power consumption

anything outside or underground would be my first targets, no looking or sniffing, open up
whats there

after outside do the same inside, check what you unplug as well as the 'hard wiring'

do not leave until you have found the cause of the problem.

if you own a megger and know how to use it, this would help alot in these cases

good luck, be the electrician

 

[garisilver]

Charlietuna, I'm not trying to implicate FPE, but I think it's pertinent to the issue. It could be something that people seee occur with FPE breakers. I also gave amperages, so I think it's clear that I have an amprobe. I do not have a data recorder, although that would probably be helpful in a situation like this.

Readydave8, the replacement breakers came from Home Depot. I don't think they're selling counterfeit breakers. The homeowner said they never reset the breakers once they were originally energized. As far as a high amperage fault, none occured while I was there, and there doesnt seem to be anything in the house that is not operating.

Zog, a breaker that does it's job can be reset. The breakers failed. They do not pass current. They would not reset either in the panel, or when disconnnected and removed. The breaker I brought with me was working when I removed it during a panel change out. I don't have equipment to test breakers. I admit to saving obsolete breakers. At the prices that suppliers charge, many customers are more than happy to get the ones I save.

Bearound, I did most of the things that you mention. I said looking and sniffing to be brief. I did not chase out all the circuits.

I'm asking if anyone has experienced this kind of failure, and asking what kind of things can cause them. I have trouble beleiving that 2 brand new breakers were defective.

 

[mxslick]

<snip> I have trouble beleiving that 2 brand new breakers were defective.

I don't. FPE's design for those breakers, especially the two-poles, is fundamentally flawed, and I don't think UBI spent the time or money to correct the flaws, they simply started building breakers using the original specs.

Do you customer a huge favor and recommend a panel upgrade of one or both panels, it will save them (and you) a lot of headaches and money in the long run.

I have seen way too many FPE breakers/Panels/busses fail to even consider trying to repair that junk.

Do a search on this site and you'll see plenty of threads and a LOT of others who agree with replacement as the only safe and effective option.

 

[garisilver]

I have no arguement with the replacement of FPE panels/stablock breakers.
I already had the discussion with the homeowner, but it's a rental that's costing him to own, so he's hesitant to spend the money, especially when there's no guarantee that the problem is being caused by the FPE equipment.
I'd like to be sure of what is causing this to happen.

 

[zog]

Zog, a breaker that does it's job can be reset. The breakers failed. They do not pass current. They would not reset either in the panel, or when disconnnected and removed.

No, a breaker that does it's job trips when a fault occurs. Resetting without knowing why it tripped (or doing any real testing)is a violation of OSHA 1910.334 (b)(2) "Reclosing circuits after protective device operation." After a circuit is deenergized by a circuit protective device, the circuit protective device, the circuit may not be manually reenergized until it has been determined that the equipment and circuit can be safely energized. The repetitive manual reclosing of circuit breakers or reenergizing circuits through replaced fuses is prohibited.

Note: When it can be determined from the design of the circuit and the overcurrent devices involved that the automatic operation of a device was caused by an overload rather than a fault condition, no examination of the circuit or connected equipment is needed before the circuit is reenergized.

This rule exists because most MCCB's are only designed to trip once under a fault condition and are not designed to be able to interupt a second fault. (A fault being a short circuit or ground fault, not an overload condition)

The breaker I brought with me was working when I removed it during a panel change out. I don't have equipment to test breakers.

How do you know it is working if you don't have the equipment to test it? You are just assuming it was working because it was closed.

I admit to saving obsolete breakers. At the prices that suppliers charge, many customers are more than happy to get the ones I save

As long as you understand the liability you are taking on by installing an untested used OCPD, your call.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Ohio

"115.6.2 Used materials and equipment.

The use of used materials which meet the requirements of this code for new materials is permitted. Used equipment, appliances and devices shall not be reused unless approved by the residential building official."

http://publicecodes.citation.com/st...b4v06_1_sec015_par007.htm?bu=OH-P-2005-000004

 

[garisilver]

I'll take your word for the OSHA reference, and I won't argue. It's a good rule.
But in the real world, from my vantage point, breakers are reset all the time by both homeowners, electricians, and just about anyone else that I can think of that's involved at some level with a tripped breaker.
And they are resettable, and often many times, after a fault. I can't answer to the design intent, but I've repaired shorts for customers who have reset the breaker thinking that after enough times resetting, the problem would go away.
I don't want to get in a contest with you about all of these things. The books are on your side.
I just want to know if anyone can shed some light on this situation.

 

[garisilver]

I knew I was going to get in trouble when I mentioned a used breaker.
But I'm still looking for an answer to my question. Can we save the beatings for later?

 

[zog]

I knew I was going to get in trouble when I mentioned a used breaker.
But I'm still looking for an answer to my question. Can we save the beatings for later?

You got your answers, get a megger, do some real testing, recommend a panel upgrade like mxslick recommended.

 

[jmellc]

Refrigerator is the only motor driven appliance? Could the compressor be binding up from time to time? Don't know how high that would draw, but it should kill its own breaker before the main. Any window AC units? Is the subpanel also FPE? Sometimes they are notorious for not tripping. If the load has a non tripping breaker, the load could pass to the main and trip it. I have seen a load trip both its own breaker and the main as well. Check receptacles feeding the appliances. Look for any burned wire or charred device. A 50 amp+ load would surely wreak havoc on the device and wiring. Any space heaters used? They are worth looking at. If several are being used and don't trip their own breaker, they may add up to 50A+ if they kick in together.

Ask if there use to be a coach light outside. I've seen them removed and live wires left buried to short out at times. Any "mystery" switches are a clue to this if HO doesn't know. Same for any buried wiring to a shed or barn. May be buried 2" deep and been cut with a shovel or garden stake.

Also, check attic and crawlspace for any HVAC, pumps, fans, etc. I've see a lot of things jacklegged into a ckt by someone's brother in law or a previous HO. HO may not even know of it. I have seen a water pump bugged from 2 1p ckts to get 240v. WP could easily pull 50A+ if seized. See if it has an attic fan and be sure it isn't seized up. That probably wouldn't pull a 50A overload, but who knows? I've replaced lots of seized up attic fans.

If you can get there shortly after a trip, determ and ohm out the wires from each breaker. If the load is till on, that will give you a full signal.

Hope some of this may help. I hate needles in haystacks or chasing shadows. Why can't we have red flag/siren devices that give us all the answers?

 

[jim dungar]

This rule exists because most MCCB's are only designed to trip once under a fault condition and are not designed to be able to interupt a second fault. (A fault being a short circuit or ground fault, not an overload condition)

Almost.

A breaker is designed for (1) full AIC rating fault. Multiple faults at lower levels (for example at 6x rating) are required as part of the testing.

 

[zog]

Almost.

A breaker is designed for (1) full AIC rating fault. Multiple faults at lower levels (for example at 6x rating) are required as part of the testing.

Right, should have been more specific but in this case there is no way to know what the fault level was.

 

[garisilver]

It too bad that some guys are willing to share their experiences and thoughts on a subject while others just want to stir the pot.
I didn't come here to get my butt kicked because I haven't done my job the way someone else would have. Not everyone has the resources that are available to others. Not everyone has the knowledge and experience in all facets of the trade that others may have. That's why I'm here. I want to hear what a guy who has run into a problem like this has found.
I hate to use the cliche, but this is like a brotherhood. We're here, and this site is here to help each other, and beating up on a guy because he didn't do it your way isn't much of a brotherhood.
I came here to hear your experiences, but a few of you certainly didn't pick up on that. For those of you that did, thanks for your input. For those of you who didn't, lighten up a little bit. Don't be holier than thou. I'm just looking for a little help. I thought I could find it here because it's obvious that there are a lot of talented people here. I don't know it all, and I'll freely admit it. But collectively, all the electrical people here probably DO know it all. And I want to take advantage of that. And I want to do it in a cordial way.
So I'll keep looking to see if there are others that want to share their experience with a breaker failure problem like mine, and I'll try and keep a dialogue going when appropriate, but I didn't come here to defend myself, so I think I'll have to skip replying to those other posts.
Once again, thanks to those of you that have responded with your experiences .

 

[charlietuna]

garisilver,
Sorry if i offended you--and you did list the amperages that were present at the time you checked the load in the panel--but from what i'm gathering from your post is :
Since the panel is only drawing 29 amps --how can the main breaker be failing?
And since it is cvan we blame it on FPE?

Your customer is paying you for customer service and with what you posted you are providing him guess work ! You really need to determine the full connected load to this panel. This will take some time consuming work. There could be a fault as some people suggested, or even a load that comes on in the middle of the night that cycles above the breakers rating. Another thing is many FPE breakers sold are after market and/or reconditioned(meaning nothing). I will not blame it on the manufacturer. We have all seen brand new breakers fail and from many manufacturers. I have serviced large office buildings with FPE gear throughout, and had less problems than the building next door with Square D !

 

[garisilver]

Thanks for your ideas, Jmellc, but to me,those seem like things that would usually cause a breaker to trip, not completely fail (twice) like these did. That's what's so puzzling.
This whole research thing may be in vain. At this point, everthing is working, so the homeowner has no incentive to let me come and troubleshoot.
I'd just like to know what others have found in this kind of situation, so that if the current breaker fails, I've got some good ideas about what else to look at, and to be able to do it without it costing the owner a fortune.

 

[satcom]

Thanks for your ideas, Jmellc, but to me,those seem like things that would usually cause a breaker to trip, not completely fail (twice) like these did. That's what's so puzzling.

The FPE 2 Pole breakers were the problem breakers, and it would not be out of the norm to have them fail in use from faults, the 2 poles did everything from just fail, to burn the side of buildings out, but as many on here have said you want to look for the load or fault that caused the breakdown. Your profile says licensed in 2 states, so you must have a good understanding of what fault currents can do. The guys on here will always try to help to their best ability.