FPE Troubles

[garisilver]

Charlietuna, thanks for the apology.
In case I wasn't clear, there's a 200 amp FPE main panel with a 60 amp breaker in it that feeds a FPE subpanel. I misspoke before and said 50 amp. The subpanel has 10-s/p 15 and 20 amp breakers. It's not like there's and overload of 60+ amps or even near 60 amps that could cause the breaker to cook. I think I'd be able to smell it, and the homeowner would have felt the heat when he went to the panel.
I'm sure it's possible that the multiple s/p breakers at some point could max out the 60 amp breaker, but that should trip the breaker, not ruin it.
I really haven't given the owner guesswork, because I haven't guessed anything. I told him I didn't know why the 2 replacement breakers failed. But let me put a breaker in to get you going, and I'll see what I can find out. I didn't charge him because I don't feel like I did a repair for him.
Time consuming work is going to be a problem with a owner that's losing money on the home. I'd love to be able to tell him that I banged heads with a few guys and here's what we came up with. Better than looking for that needle in the haystack.

 

[benaround]

gari,

If you do have to go back, how hard would it be to swap a few circuits erom the sub panel

to the main panel ? maybe that would give some insight if the next time it happened an it

tripped the c.b. in the main panel. This type of troubleshooting problem, intermitant, can

really be tough to track down, there are so many possiblities, its also hard to give good

advise for the same reason. I would have a hard time believing that 2=3 breakers are all

no good, but , that's just my opinion. Is there a chance that lightning has been in your

area during the times the breaker crashed ?
gari, if any of my comments have offended you, it was not done in malice, and I

apoligize, that's not the way I roll.

 

[satcom]

Charlietuna, thanks for the apology.
In case I wasn't clear, there's a 200 amp FPE main panel with a 60 amp breaker in it that feeds a FPE subpanel. I misspoke before and said 50 amp. The subpanel has 10-s/p 15 and 20 amp breakers. It's not like there's and overload of 60+ amps or even near 60 amps that could cause the breaker to cook. I think I'd be able to smell it, and the homeowner would have felt the heat when he went to the panel.
I'm sure it's possible that the multiple s/p breakers at some point could max out the 60 amp breaker, but that should trip the breaker, not ruin it.
I really haven't given the owner guesswork, because I haven't guessed anything. I told him I didn't know why the 2 replacement breakers failed. But let me put a breaker in to get you going, and I'll see what I can find out. I didn't charge him because I don't feel like I did a repair for him.
Time consuming work is going to be a problem with a owner that's losing money on the home. I'd love to be able to tell him that I banged heads with a few guys and here's what we came up with. Better than looking for that needle in the haystack.

A careless fault such as tripping a breaker with a jumper to ground, can blow a breaker apart in the panel your working of cause trips, or damage down stream, it does not have to be something you feel heat from or smell.

What does th owner losing money on the home, have to do with your troubleshooting?

 

[garisilver]

Benaround, I appreciate the way you roll.
If I get back there, I could try moving some circuits around. You're right about the intermitent thing.
I don't know about the lightning possibility, I'm about 15 miles from the house, and we haven't had much around my house until this week.

Satcom, I know it's very possible with FPE breakers, but I think you're suggesting that a fault occurs on a 15 or 20 amp breaker, it doesn't trip, and the 60 amp breaker fails. I won't argue with the 15 or 20 not tripping, I've seen it, but why would 2(3 including the original) 60's fail?

 

[garisilver]

What does th owner losing money on the home, have to do with your troubleshooting?[/QUOTE]

At some point, I do actually start charging for my work.

 

[satcom]

Benaround, I appreciate the way you roll.
If I get back there, I could try moving some circuits around. You're right about the intermitent thing.
I don't know about the lightning possibility, I'm about 15 miles from the house, and we haven't had much around my house until this week.

Satcom, I know it's very possible with FPE breakers, but I think you're suggesting that a fault occurs on a 15 or 20 amp breaker, it doesn't trip, and the 60 amp breaker fails. I won't argue with the 15 or 20 not tripping, I've seen it, but why would 2(3 including the original) 60's fail?

Most of the FPE breakers that failed were 2 pole 40 to 60A not many if any of the single poles were reported to fail, the fault may be difficult to find, I would suggest the owner replace the existing equipment for a start.

 

[gadfly56]

No, a breaker that does it's job trips when a fault occurs. Resetting without knowing why it tripped (or doing any real testing)is a violation of OSHA 1910.334 (b)(2) "Reclosing circuits after protective device operation." After a circuit is deenergized by a circuit protective device, the circuit protective device, the circuit may not be manually reenergized until it has been determined that the equipment and circuit can be safely energized. The repetitive manual reclosing of circuit breakers or reenergizing circuits through replaced fuses is prohibited.

Note: When it can be determined from the design of the circuit and the overcurrent devices involved that the automatic operation of a device was caused by an overload rather than a fault condition, no examination of the circuit or connected equipment is needed before the circuit is reenergized.

This rule exists because most MCCB's are only designed to trip once under a fault condition and are not designed to be able to interupt a second fault. (A fault being a short circuit or ground fault, not an overload condition)

And since when did the Occupational Saftey and Health Administration gain jurisdiction in residential occupancies :-??

 

[bradleyelectric]

And since when did the Occupational Saftey and Health Administration gain jurisdiction in residential occupancies :-??

When people with the OCCUPATION of electrician work in them.

 

[bradleyelectric]

Note to original poster. Just because you don't like the information someone gives doesn't mean they are stirring the pot or are not giving you information regarding their knowledge of the trade. Quite the opposite actually.

 

[gadfly56]

When people with the OCCUPATION of electrician work in them.

I think it's a stretch to apply it in this case. We'll find out, since I've sent an inquiry to OSHA.

 

[zog]

I think it's a stretch to apply it in this case. We'll find out, since I've sent an inquiry to OSHA.

You don't think OSHA applies to you if you are doing residential work as a licensed electrician? I look forward to your resposne from your OSHA inquiry, these all end up on my buddy Ken's desk so I will have to ask him about it when I see him next month at EPRI.

 

[jmellc]

Thanks for your ideas, Jmellc, but to me,those seem like things that would usually cause a breaker to trip, not completely fail (twice) like these did. That's what's so puzzling.
This whole research thing may be in vain. At this point, everthing is working, so the homeowner has no incentive to let me come and troubleshoot.
I'd just like to know what others have found in this kind of situation, so that if the current breaker fails, I've got some good ideas about what else to look at, and to be able to do it without it costing the owner a fortune.

Been there and done that. I know the situation. Maybe best you can do is have him call if it happens again. My suggestions may not be the problem, but are things I've seen that have caused roughly similar problems. That's why residential can be so discouraging. You come into something after a long line of jacklegs, and in this case have FPE, one of the worst panels ever made (but it carried a UL label), which makes troubleshooting all the more difficult.

Don't worry too much over the grief. An electrician's worst critic is another electrician. This is a grueling trade and even the best guys can get cynical over the years.

 

[charlietuna]

There is a local electrical supply that specializes in reconditioned circuit breakers and most of their business comes from internet sales. I went there one day to find a particular Sylvania breaker and the owner showed me around the place, which had quite a large inventory! They had some test equipment for calibrating large frame size breakers. Two of his employees were, what he called "reconditioning" a pallet of assorted small plug-in breakers of different manufacturers and configurations. Many were used. What they considered reconditioning was wire brushing the breaker's contact fingers and spraying with WD-40 and cleaning with a rag!!! So when you buy a discontinued breaker from many places, you really don't know how much use it has had. And where did they buy this pallet of breakers ? From a service contractor? From that day on, i always went the extra buck or two,to find "NEW" breakers when possible....

 

[zog]

There is a local electrical supply that specializes in reconditioned circuit breakers and most of their business comes from internet sales. I went there one day to find a particular Sylvania breaker and the owner showed me around the place, which had quite a large inventory! They had some test equipment for calibrating large frame size breakers. Two of his employees were, what he called "reconditioning" a pallet of assorted small plug-in breakers of different manufacturers and configurations. Many were used. What they considered reconditioning was wire brushing the breaker's contact fingers and spraying with WD-40 and cleaning with a rag!!! So when you buy a discontinued breaker from many places, you really don't know how much use it has had. And where did they buy this pallet of breakers ? From a service contractor? From that day on, i always went the extra buck or two,to find "NEW" breakers when possible....

These guys are dangerous and sell a lot of stuff as "reconditioned" because they are cheap, and for a reason. That's why PEARL exists and has standards and certifications for companies to ensure they are providing safe, properly reconditioned, and most importantly tested equipment.

For example here is the MCCB reconditioning standard
http://www.pearl1.org/standards/Low...1 LV MCCB with Thermal Magnetic Trip Rev5.pdf

As you can see there is a fair amount a labor involved in both the reconditioning process and testing. So there becomes a point where reconditioning does tto make sense. For small MCCB's (<480V, <200-400A) you should always buy new.