Arc-Fault Protection

[wrestlingcoach]

210.12(B) Specifies the areas in a Dwelling that are to be protected by an listed Arc-Fault circuit interrupter, combination type. This does not list bathrooms, kitchens, garages or outside outlets. Im thinking these areas are not required to be arc-fault protected beacuse eventhough this article states "or similar rooms or areas." the code specifically refers to this areas elesewhere in the code (i.e. GFCI protection or spacing). I do not understand the reasoning behind this- I think all or none. It states in the NEC that the requirements of an arc-fault does not relinquish you from your GFCI requirements. So my question is why not arc-fault everything? I have read manufaturing specs that state the arc-fault will not interfere with the proper operation of a GFCI protection. Since these are two totaly different thing (Arc-fault and GFCI protection) why not Arc-fault the entire 120v system. I have read that homeowners could put a screw through a wire when hanging a mirror or picture. So whats to stop that from happening to the wire going to a microwave receptacle (thats not required to be GFCI or Arc-fault protected). Since these are not the same thing then what if this happens to a wire that is GFCI protected; since these breakers/outlets protect against two different things then a GFCI will not protect the circuit like an arc-fault or visa-versa. Please enlighten me I may be way of base but what do you guys think?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I think that the members of the code panel were not convinced, at that time, that the AFCI would not be a problem with appliances. I am thinking this code cycle is a test run and expect at some point that everything will be AFCI protected.

We do know from past experiences that vacuums and ceiling fans have caused problems with earlier generations of the AFCI. I guess the manufacturers are learning as they go so we have to give it time.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Arc-Fault Protection

And what on earth is your hurry?

 

[jcole]

If the code does require all circuits to be afci protected one day, I think that they should lower the gfi currents to 4-6mA on the afci so we could eliminate gfci all together. This would eliminate some cost increase on residential projects. But GFCI manufactors might have something to say about that.

 

[George Stolz]

That would be hell on earth. The afci manufacturers already increased the gfci threshold on the afci's due to nuisance tripping issues, and it was far higher than class a gfci's before they did.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

That would be hell on earth. The afci manufacturers already increased the gfci threshold on the afci's due to nuisance tripping issues, and it was far higher than class a gfci's before they did.

George,
Do you have a source for that? I don't see a trip caused by a ground fault as a nuisance trip of the device. A ground fault is a real world fault and is an installation problem that needs to be corrected.
The only thing I consider a nuisance trip is when the fancy arc fault signature recognition algorithm trips when it sees some types of loads...loads that are operating completely within their design standards and have no "real world" problems.

 

[Strife]

Actually arc fault are less sensitive than GFI, they work on the same principle, difference of amps on the hot VS the neutral (which in my opinion does not make it an AFCI, but anyway). Bottom line GFI is a better protection than AFCI, but hey, someone's gotta make some money selling those AFCi's for three times the price of a GFCI.

210.12(B) Specifies the areas in a Dwelling that are to be protected by an listed Arc-Fault circuit interrupter, combination type. This does not list bathrooms, kitchens, garages or outside outlets. Im thinking these areas are not required to be arc-fault protected beacuse eventhough this article states "or similar rooms or areas." the code specifically refers to this areas elesewhere in the code (i.e. GFCI protection or spacing). I do not understand the reasoning behind this- I think all or none. It states in the NEC that the requirements of an arc-fault does not relinquish you from your GFCI requirements. So my question is why not arc-fault everything? I have read manufaturing specs that state the arc-fault will not interfere with the proper operation of a GFCI protection. Since these are two totaly different thing (Arc-fault and GFCI protection) why not Arc-fault the entire 120v system. I have read that homeowners could put a screw through a wire when hanging a mirror or picture. So whats to stop that from happening to the wire going to a microwave receptacle (thats not required to be GFCI or Arc-fault protected). Since these are not the same thing then what if this happens to a wire that is GFCI protected; since these breakers/outlets protect against two different things then a GFCI will not protect the circuit like an arc-fault or visa-versa. Please enlighten me I may be way of base but what do you guys think?

 

[jcole]

That would be hell on earth. The afci manufacturers already increased the gfci threshold on the afci's due to nuisance tripping issues, and it was far higher than class a gfci's before they did.

I understand that. Obviously I should have said it would be a good idea if the manufactors could design an arch fault breaker that provides the same protection as a class a.

Sorry about the confusion on your part.

Also, Ditto what don said.

 

[480sparky]

If over-current, arc-fault and ground-fault protection is going to be provided all in one breaker, there will need to be some sort of indication on the breaker itself as to what caused it to trip. Otherwise, it would be more economical to simply rerun the circuit than to track down the problem.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I understand that. Obviously I should have said it would be a good idea if the manufactors could design an arch fault breaker that provides the same protection as a class a.

Sorry about the confusion on your part.

Also, Ditto what don said.

They can and at least on manufacturer had a AFCI/GFCI breaker of the branch circuit/feeder type (the original AFCI that has been replaced by what is called the combination AFCI). I am not aware of any combination type AFCIs that are also listed as GFCIs.