Pvc Conduit Floor to Floor

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jeff barnes

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I have to get a 4" communication conduit (fiber and copper) up six levals in our stadium. The run is somewhat difficult so the ITD dept asked if PVC could be used. I know you can run PVC above grade but what are the restrictions going floor to floor? How would you Fire seal the penetration?

Thanks,

Jeff
 
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mcclary's electrical said:
jeff barnes said:
I have to get a 4" communication conduit (fiber and copper) up six levals in our stadium. The run is somewhat difficult so the ITD dept asked if PVC could be used. I know you can run PVC above grade but what are the restrictions going floor to floor? How would you Fire seal the penetration?


What is the NFPA 5000 rating of the assembly you are penetrating?


http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?mwsId=66666UuZjcFSLXTt4XTtNXTVEVuQEcuZgVs6EVs6E666666--
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We are passing through a concrete floor. Not sure of the rating.
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chris kennedy said:
Same here.

Would a stadium fall under 518?
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Exactly my thought, and I would say yes, unless it is for less than 100 persons. Not likely.
So there is no reasonble way to encase it in 2" of concrete under ther floors 514.4(A) compared to using steel.

But figure out your chosen firestop method and appropriate drawing first. An EMT sleeve is not quite as thick as shcedule 10, which is about the thinnest sleeve you'll find allowed for floor penetrations.
 
infinity said:
Why is running a PVC riser easier than EMT?
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There is an open area we'll have to use an extension ladder in, about 36' high. The thought is PVC will be lighter and less difficult to install. In the past I've always used EMT. The run will originate in a pantry room on the 6th level, through another pantry on the 5th floor, continuing down through an open area approx. 36', changing directions twice and terminating in an equipment room on the 1st floor. I'm simply asking can PVC be installed floor to floor. It sounds like the answer is yes as long as the proper fire barrier is used.
Any input will be appreciated.

Thanks
 
jeff barnes said:
There is an open area we'll have to use an extension ladder in, about 36' high. The thought is PVC will be lighter and less difficult to install. In the past I've always used EMT. The run will originate in a pantry room on the 6th level, through another pantry on the 5th floor, continuing down through an open area approx. 36', changing directions twice and terminating in an equipment room on the 1st floor. I'm simply asking can PVC be installed floor to floor. It sounds like the answer is yes as long as the proper fire barrier is used.
Any input will be appreciated.

Thanks
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In my opinion the answer is no per 518.4(A) until you show that the building complies with 518.4(B).
 
Volta said:
In my opinion the answer is no per 518.4(A) until you show that the building complies with 518.4(B).
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OP states it is a communications conduit. Per 518.4(A) Exception, the wiring method shall be as provided in Article 800. That would take you to 800.110(A)(1), which permits any raceway and its installation per Chapter 3.
 
Smart $ said:
OP states it is a communications conduit. Per 518.4(A) Exception, the wiring method shall be as provided in Article 800. That would take you to 800.110(A)(1), which permits any raceway and its installation per Chapter 3.
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Good point.

And we know that Chapter Eight is not subject to the requirements of Chapters 1 through 7, unless specifically referenced therein.
So for a Ch. 3 raceway we just need to comply with Chapters 3 and 8, per 800.110, for communication circuits*.

But Section 352.12((F) restricts us from installing PVC in that part of a building designed for presentation, or similar, unless permitted by 518.4 or 520.5, which it is not.

*A second path to disallow it is the desire to use this raceway for fiber optical cable(s), which is more directly subject to Chapters 1 through 7.
 
Volta said:
...

But Section 352.12((F) restricts us from installing PVC in that part of a building designed for presentation, or similar, unless permitted by 518.4 or 520.5, which it is not.
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I do not believe this installation to be in the seating area of the stadium (needs confirmation). As such, the proposed installation is not in the area where presentations etc. are made. For this reason I do not believe 520.5 applies (520.1 seems to clarify this). Furthermore, it is 518.4 that sent us to Chapter 3 in the first place. So IMO the proper interpretation is any section which sends us back to where we started is rendered moot.

*A second path to disallow it is the desire to use this raceway for fiber optical cable(s), which is more directly subject to Chapters 1 through 7.
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Installation is subject to Article 770. As such, only those sections in Chapter 2 and Article 300 referred to in Article 770 apply [770.3]. From there, 770.110 essentially mimics 800.110 in permitting any raceway and its installation per Chapter 3.
 
Smart $ said:
I do not believe this installation to be in the seating area of the stadium (needs confirmation). As such, the proposed installation is not in the area where presentations etc. are made.
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I agree that it is likely that this raceway would not be installed in an area which does not have some fire-rated membrane between the 100 persons and the PVC.

However I think it is also likely that this Wiring Method is going to be installed in a facility subject to Article 518.

I don't believe that the Sub-section (B) could be used for exposed PVC in general, as a set of stacked mechanical closets (or other portions of these buildings) are likely to be required to be of fire-rated construction per 518.4(B).

For this reason I do not believe 520.5 applies (520.1 seems to clarify this).
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I can agree with that. But 518.4 still does apply.
Furthermore, it is 518.4 that sent us to Chapter 3 in the first place. So IMO the proper interpretation is any section which sends us back to where we started is rendered moot.
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Well, that sure is hard to dispute, so I will agree. [90.3: 800 > 800.110 > "installed in accordance with Chapter 3" > 300.1(A): 352.12(F) "theaters and similar locations, except as provided for in 518.4 and" > 518.4 Methods shall be as listed except Communication circuits - Article 800] :)

Installation is subject to Article 770. As such, only those sections in Chapter 2 and Article 300 referred to in Article 770 apply [770.3]. From there, 770.110 essentially mimics 800.110 in permitting any raceway and its installation per Chapter 3.
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[90.3: 770 > 770.3 {d'oh} :) > 770.154 (B)(1) "Listed fiber optical raceways shall also be permitted" > 770.182 (B) {If this is a "Optical fiber raceway", Then > 770.182(B) = Possible Fail per UL 2024 for listing[/B], If Not Then > Ok}]

So:
Is this an "optical fiber raceway"? 770.154(B)(1)
Is PVC listed as a "riser optical fiber raceway"? 770.182
 
Volta said:
I agree ...


[90.3: 770 > 770.3 {d'oh} :) > 770.154 (B)(1) "Listed fiber optical raceways shall also be permitted" > 770.182 (B) {If this is a "Optical fiber raceway", Then > 770.182(B) = Possible Fail per UL 2024 for listing[/B], If Not Then > Ok}]

So:
Is this an "optical fiber raceway"? 770.154(B)(1)
Is PVC listed as a "riser optical fiber raceway"? 770.182
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Seems like you used a lot of words to agree with me :D

As for the above quoted part of your reply, did you look at 770.110. It is quite similar to 800.110 in permitting Chapter 3 raceway or listed fiber raceway. If the PVC is listed as any type of fiber raceway and also listed as general-purpose PVC then you can install it either way, and you would obviously choose to do so as GP PVC so as to not be in violation ;)
 
Smart $ said:
Seems like you used a lot of words to agree with me :D
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That's for sure!

But I had to work it out, and I'm slow to learn.
As for the above quoted part of your reply, did you look at 770.110. It is quite similar to 800.110 in permitting Chapter 3 raceway or listed fiber raceway.
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No, I didn't, and yes it is quite similar. So if I paste that verbose Section-path, and use 770 instead of 800:

[90.3: 770.3: 770.110 > "installed in accordance with Chapter 3" > 300.1(A): 352.12(F) "theaters and similar locations, except as provided for in 518.4 and" > 518.4 Methods shall be as listed - Fiber optical cables are not excepted.]

I think that would prohibit methods not listed from being installed if not for the installation of items in exceptions (a) through (d). So no general purpose PVC.

If the PVC is listed as any type of fiber raceway and also listed as general-purpose PVC then you can install it either way, and you would obviously choose to do so as GP PVC so as to not be in violation ;)
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If my logic above is right (who know's :roll:?), then the PVC can only be used if listed as a Riser Optical Fiber Raceway.
 
Volta said:
... So if I paste that verbose Section-path, and use 770 instead of 800:

[90.3: 770.3: 770.110 > "installed in accordance with Chapter 3" > 300.1(A): 352.12(F) "theaters and similar locations, except as provided for in 518.4 and" > 518.4 Methods shall be as listed - Fiber optical cables are not excepted.]

I think that would prohibit methods not listed from being installed if not for the installation of items in exceptions (a) through (d). So no general purpose PVC.



If my logic above is right (who know's :roll:?), then the PVC can only be used if listed as a Riser Optical Fiber Raceway.
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Before you get dead set in your interpretation, consider the purpose of optical fiber cable (the highlighted in red should be enough of a clue ;))
 
Smart $ said:
Before you get dead set in your interpretation, consider the purpose of optical fiber cable (the highlighted in red should be enough of a clue ;))
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I know, and that was ringing loudly in my head while typing. And the physical world sure doesn't care how we define things.

But I have also used them for remote control of doors and access, and systems that signal motion, indicators or other physical events, as well as communicating more regular information. So I don't think that we can simply call it communication cable when Article 770 so clearly applies.

Or if we did, we would also have to be sure to comply with 725.

I don't want to be set in any questionable interpretation, and if anyone can get through this, it is propably you.

So what say you? Can we justify the PVC with Art. 770? When we get to 518.4 are we going to call it only an Article 800 installation or does it need to comply with the fiber article too?

I think it does and needs to be listed as such. Show me a good loophole.
 
Volta said:
I know, and that was ringing loudly in my head while typing. ...

So what say you? Can we justify the PVC with Art. 770? When we get to 518.4 are we going to call it only an Article 800 installation or does it need to comply with the fiber article too?

I think it does and needs to be listed as such. Show me a good loophole.
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I can't give you a clear-cut loophole (yet if it were clear-cut, it wouldn't be a loophole ;)) because it will be dependent on the particular purpose of the fiber.

If it is for communications as defined by 800 def's, then it would not have to comply with 770, as 800.3(A) excludes any provision in Chapters 1 through 7 unless specifically referenced. So we're back to okay per an Article 800 installation.

If it is not a communications cable, then 770 applies. However, 770.3 Other Articles, second sentence states, "Only those sections of Chapter 2 and Article 300 referenced in this article shall apply to optical fiber cables and raceways." That seems to me to exclude Article 352 permitted and not permitted uses, as the only mention of Article 352 anything is in 770.48 regarding outside and entering buildings. But that is just my opinion and subject to varied interpretations, mostly because 770.110 says Chapter 3 rather than Article 300 :roll:
 
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