Reverse fed xfm

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Cold Fusion

Senior Member
Location
way north
A conversation I overheard: The transformer in question is a 208Y / 480D. It is being fed from the 208 end. Secondary is 480D.

The electricians connected the 208 Xo to a nice solid egc that bonds back to the 208V source..

I'm thinking it likely would not matter if the 480D is balanced. But if it is not, then there will be heavy currents over the Xo back the source. I'm having a hard time getting my head wrapped around this.

Any thoughts?

cf
 

qcroanoke

Sometimes I don't know if I'm the boxer or the bag
Location
Roanoke, VA.
Occupation
Sorta retired........
A conversation I overheard: The transformer in question is a 208Y / 480D. It is being fed from the 208 end. Secondary is 480D.

The electricians connected the 208 Xo to a nice solid egc that bonds back to the 208V source..

I'm thinking it likely would not matter if the 480D is balanced. But if it is not, then there will be heavy currents over the Xo back the source. I'm having a hard time getting my head wrapped around this.

Any thoughts?

cf

Well, I'm not an engineer but I do know that the transformer will not like having X0 connected.
I got it turned off just in time, before the smoke got out.
 

cripple

Senior Member
I found the following on the web, I hope is helps.

Back Feeding Transformers

Occasionally, someone has an urgent need for a non-stock step-up transformer.
The natural inclination is to grab an in-stock step-down unit and to operate it in reverse. Except for small (less than 3 KVA models, which have compensated windings to provide rated voltage at rated load), if permitted by local codes, then it is generally OK to reverse feed a transformer but there are several precautions that should be considered. To illustrate, lets assume that a standard 9T23B3874 step-down transformer rated 75 KVA/3-phase/60 HZ with a 480 VAC Delta Primary with (6) 2-1/2% FC2A4BN voltage taps and a 208Y/120 VAC Secondary is to be operated step-up; that is, 208 VAC input to 480 VAC output.

The installer may discover that the primary protector, having been properly selected and applied per Article 450 of the National Electrical Code, nevertheless, trips or blows when he attempts to energize the reverse operated transformer. This phenomenon can occur because the low impedance winding (the 208Y/120 VAC one that was intended by design to be the secondary winding) now serves as the primary and the value of the magnetizing inrush current (Mag-I) is actually much greater than expected. The Mag-I experienced when energizing transformers is similar to the inrush current associated with motor starting. The primary and secondary full load amps of the subject transformer are 90 Amps @ 480 VAC and 208 Amps @ 208 VAC respectively.
When connected step-down and energized at 480 VAC, the maximum peak inrush current is approximately 990 Amps or 11 times the rated 90 Amp primary winding full load current. But when connected step-up and energized at 208 VAC, the maximum peak inrush can reach 7700 Amps or 37 times the rated 208 Amp secondary winding full load current.

Normally, the taps on the primary can be used to compensate for instances where the voltage of the source is not the same as the rated voltage of the transformer. When the normal secondary is energized to serve as the primary, there are no adjustment taps. So if the voltage of the source is higher than the rated voltage of the transformer?s normal secondary, it will be over-excited resulting in higher than rated core loss and exciting current, this is generally not a serious concern unless the over-voltage exceeds 5%.

When the secondary (WYE) of a DELTA-WYE transformer is energized, instead of the primary (DELTA), the neutral should not be connected to ground or to the enclosure. An unbalanced source might circulate current in the transformer DELTA and cause over-heating. Also the impedance to ground of the transformer might be lower than the system ground impedance and excessive current to ground might over-heat the transformer. Unbalanced conditions could cause a voltage to ground to appear on the enclosure if it was connected to the neutral.

Small transformers, rated less than 3 KVA, are compensated for voltage regulation to ensure that they will provide rated voltage at rated load. This means that the output voltage will be 5 to 10% lower than rated if the winding are reverse connected. The transformer was originally designed for primary and secondary as stated in the nameplate, which is validated by the UL mark. If the transformer is reverse-fed or used in an application other than what it was originally intended for, make sure you consult your local codes and UL standards.
 

qcroanoke

Sometimes I don't know if I'm the boxer or the bag
Location
Roanoke, VA.
Occupation
Sorta retired........
I am - but right now tht's not helping a great deal:confused:


It's been operational connected that way for a while - but "off now" is where I'm at.

Anybody got any other thoughts.

cf

Really?! When I turned on this one you could hear the insides getting hot.
You might try searching this site for reverse fed transformers for some more information on it.
 

dicklaxt

Senior Member
A boost application for short distance transmission and then bring it back down,,,,,,,,,,this is a guess

I believe if that were the case then the 208 source(XO) ground would not be connected to the distribution transformer primary.

Maybe they just ran out of delta delta:grin::grin::grin:It will be interesting to find out the true application they are going for.

dick
 

kingpb

Senior Member
Location
SE USA as far as you can go
Occupation
Engineer, Registered
How is a 480D not going to be balanced? Without a neutral, unless you have a bunch of L-L loads, you are going to have 3-phase loads. The amount of unbalance is going to circulate in the windings but it won't be any different then another delta/wye transformer. Because you are stepping up, instead of stepping down only has to do with the placement of the windings on the core of the transformer. since it was designed for the other direction, but shouldn't be a probleme other than you might encounter slightly higher losses.

I think a bigger question is what are they doing for a ground on the delta side? You can certainly operate ungrounded, but now you need some additional equipment to sense ground faults.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
CF

Post #4 has the correct info, as long as the X/0 is un bonded on the 208/120 side , and the inrush doesn't trip the breaker feeding it, and if the transformer is left on. (not switched on and off many times a day it should hold up, I have had problems where they turned the transformer on and off every time they started the machine, eventually this over heated the
208/120 volt windings, like post 4 says the inrush will be much higher in this configuration, so care must be placed upon slecting the feeding breaker size.
 

Cold Fusion

Senior Member
Location
way north
What the reason? You have a 120/208 service and need 480 for something?

Get the right transformer or maybe a small phase converter.

...It will be interesting to find out the true application they are going for. ...

...I think a bigger question is what are they doing for a ground on the delta side? You can certainly operate ungrounded, but now you need some additional equipment to sense ground faults.
Gentlemen -
I appreciate your comments - but but none of this bears on what I asked.

cf
 

Cold Fusion

Senior Member
Location
way north
hurk -
Thanks for your comments
...Post #4 has the correct info, ...
So noted and appreciated in post 10.

... as long as the X/0 is un bonded on the 208/120 side ....
As I stated in the OP, " ...The electricians connected the 208 Xo to a nice solid egc that bonds back to the 208V source. ..."

What I am after is the physics/science behind what happens when the 208/120 Xo is connected to an EGC with a direct connection to the source 208 neutral.

If you (plural - everybody I think the term is 'all youall" :) have some insight into the science/physics - I'm interested.

cf
 
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Cold Fusion

Senior Member
Location
way north
I found the following on the web, I hope is helps.

... When the secondary (WYE) of a DELTA-WYE transformer is energized, instead of the primary (DELTA), the neutral should not be connected to ground or to the enclosure. An unbalanced source might circulate current in the transformer DELTA and cause over-heating. Also the impedance to ground of the transformer might be lower than the system ground impedance and excessive current to ground might over-heat the transformer. Unbalanced conditions could cause a voltage to ground to appear on the enclosure if it was connected to the neutral. ...
Cripple -
This was the part that was interesting. What was your source for this?

cf
 

dicklaxt

Senior Member
I don't believe that any fault in the now secondary 480 will effect the primary but if there were a fault on either the source 208(assuming it is grounded) or the now primary 208 if you tied them together,,,,,,,,the XO would carry any unballance back to the source or out to the new 208 primary and IMO you do not want either scenario.

I'm just trying to apply some logic here, trip out the feeder with its own breaker that has a solid grounded WYE at the source and the XO at the transformer would just float.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong as I'm flying by the seat of my Pants

dick
 
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hurk27

Senior Member
I know it has to do with the eddy currents circulating in a common core transformer, separate core transformers do not have this problem as with POCO mounted tanks, and isolated core ground mounted transformers, this is about all I know on it.

If the voltage on the supply phases are not exactly the same (which most of the time there not) it causes eddy currents to devolp in the core and can cause over heating, and a large load on the X/0
 
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Cold Fusion

Senior Member
Location
way north
How is a 480D not going to be balanced? ...
You picked one out - a bunch of L-L loads

After reaading Cripple's post: Unbalanced 208V source voltages. And now that cripple's post has sparked that, I'll maybe extrapolate to 120/208 source wave forms are distorted. Could be these come out as circulating currents in the 480D?

The physics is foggy. I'm not understanding all I know :confused: - yet.

cf
 

Cold Fusion

Senior Member
Location
way north
I don't believe that any fault in the now secondary 480 will effect the primary but if there were a fault on either the source 208(assuming it is grounded) or the now primary 208 if you tied them together,,,,,,,,the XO would carry any unballance back to the source or out to the new 208 primary and IMO you do not want either scenario.

I'm just trying to apply some logic here, trip out the feeder with its own breaker that has a solid grounded WYE at the source and the XO at the transformer would just float. ...


I know it has to do with the eddy currents circulating in a common core transformer, separate core transformers do not have this problem as with POCO mounted tanks, and isolated core ground mounted transformers, this is about all I know on it.

If the voltage on the supply phases are not exactly the same (which most of the time there not) it causes eddy currents to devolp in the core and can cause over heating, and a large load on the X/0
Okay - this is thought provoking.

Xfm is a three leg core.

cf
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Years ago I was told it had something to do with how the feeding Y transformer is reacting with the load Y transformer, if the feeding transformer is out of balance with voltage then the load transformer tries to balance the feeding transformer, basically both windings are in parallel, so it kind of made sense?
 
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