Landscape lights near pool

[shepelec]

What is the opinion of 12v landscape lighting near an inground pool?
Does it fall under, 680.10, 680.22C or 680.22E or all of the above?

What say you?:grin:

 

[Dennis Alwon]

My opinion is that low volt fixture and the underground wiring needs to be 5' from the edge of the pool. I also don't see 680.22(E) in the equation.

 

[raider1]

411.4(B) prohibits lighting systems operating at less than 30 volts to be installed less than 10 feet horizontally from the nearest edge of the water unless permitted by Article 680.

Chris

 

[WinZip]

In Virginia the state wide code will allow 12v lighting on the outside walls of an in ground pool or closer than 5 ft , I went through this with a head Inspector an it was approved because of our state wide code.

 

[OTT2]

What is the opinion of 12v landscape lighting near an inground pool?
Does it fall under, 680.10, 680.22C or 680.22E or all of the above?

What say you?:grin:

Take a look at 411.4 (B), says not less than 10', unless permitted by 680.
I think 680 will tell you they have to be listed for the location.

Looks like Chris beat me to it!!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

411.4(B) prohibits lighting systems operating at less than 30 volts to be installed less than 10 feet horizontally from the nearest edge of the water unless permitted by Article 680.

Chris

Chris, I agree but doesn't 680.22(C)(4) allow it if the transformer was an integral part of the fixture and the circuit was GFCI protected. I don't think the OP was thinking of integral.

I can't believe there is no reference in 680 to art. 411.4(B). I totally missed that. That's why you the boss.

 

[shepelec]

Thanks guys!!

411 how the heck did I miss that?????????:roll:

 

[ty]

In Virginia the state wide code will allow 12v lighting on the outside walls of an in ground pool or closer than 5 ft , I went through this with a head Inspector an it was approved because of our state wide code.

amps are amps, and the standard GFCI receptacle will not protect the secondary side of the landscape lights transformer.

Even if the State says they will allow it, I don't think I would install it.

 

[raider1]

Chris, I agree but doesn't 680.22(C)(4) allow it if the transformer was an integral part of the fixture and the circuit was GFCI protected. I don't think the OP was thinking of integral.

I can't believe there is no reference in 680 to art. 411.4(B). I totally missed that. That's why you the boss.

IMHO Article 680 is in need of some work.

As I read 680.22(C)(4) I would agree that if the transformer was integral with the luminaire and the circuit was GFCI protected then it could be installed closer than 10'.

amps are amps, and the standard GFCI receptacle will not protect the secondary side of the landscape lights transformer.

Even if the State says they will allow it, I don't think I would install it.

You are correct that the GFCI protection on the line side of a low voltage transformer would not provide GFCI protection of the secondary. That is why the transformer would have to be an integral part of the luminaire to meet the requirements of 680.22(C)(4) IMHO.

Chris

 

[WinZip]

amps are amps, and the standard GFCI receptacle will not protect the secondary side of the landscape lights transformer.

Even if the State says they will allow it, I don't think I would install it.

TY,
I posted this article some 4 months ago , not from a code book but from somewhere on the net I found it , read this an give us your thoughts.


Another frequent violation occurs around swimming pools, spas, fountains and similar areas. NEC 411.4(2) does not permit low-voltage lighting systems within 10 feet of these areas, unless permitted by Article 680. Section 680.22(B) covers area lighting around a pool. Any luminaire installed within 5 feet horizontally of the pool edge must be located at least 12 feet above the maximum water level of the pool. There are many existing low-voltage lighting installations installed after the pool installation inspection has occurred where the luminaires are installed within 3 to 5 feet of the water?s edge at or near ground level, which clearly is a violation.


Section 680.22(B)(4) permits luminaires to be installed within 5 to 10 feet horizontally of the pool?s edge only where a ground-fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) protects the luminaires. Since low-voltage landscape luminaires are supplied by a low-voltage power supply, such as a transformer, providing GFCI protection on the primary side of an isolation transformer will not provide GFCI protection on the secondary side. GFCI devices will not operate at the 15-volts or less supplied by the secondary of the power supply. This leaves only two options: one is to locate all low-voltage landscape lighting at least 10 feet from the pool or fountain edge; or, two, to use a special power supply.
There are low-voltage lighting power units that are marked ?For Use with Submersible Fixtures or Submersible Pumps.? In this case, a special transformer is used that complies with the requirements in 680.23 for underwater luminaires installed below the normal water level of the pool. This transformer is specifically listed for this use and is an isolated winding type transformer with an ungrounded secondary similar to the low-voltage landscape lighting transformer, as required by 411.5(B). The low-voltage pool lighting transformer has one additional feature in its design. It has a grounded metal barrier or shield between the primary and the secondary. This metal barrier or shield prevents a direct internal short between the primary and the secondary of the transformer. If a short does occur on the primary side, it will short to the metal shield and the primary overcurrent protective device will operate. If a short develops on the secondary side to the shield, the secondary overcurrent protective device, if provided, will operate. If there isn?t a secondary overcurrent protective device and the primary is providing protection through the transformer, the primary device should operate.

 

[WinZip]

What baffles the hell out of me is this.

Example , a spill over fountain that water from the pool spills over back into the pool.

Now in the fountain are 3 LV lights cord connected also with # 8 Bond wire attached to each fixture and the cords are left long enough to remove the

LV fixture for re Lamping , around 6 ft of cord on each run in conduit to a brass junction box built into the bottom of the fountain which is legal an

the Transformer must be listed as - For Use with Submersible Fixtures - now if you removed those fixtures an just set them on the concrete walk way to shine on the fountain wall your not code compliant.

Just baffles the hell out of me.

 

[ty]

TY,
I posted this article some 4 months ago , not from a code book but from somewhere on the net I found it , read this an give us your thoughts.


Another frequent violation occurs around swimming pools, spas, fountains and similar areas. NEC 411.4(2) does not permit low-voltage lighting systems within 10 feet of these areas, unless permitted by Article 680. Section 680.22(B) covers area lighting around a pool. Any luminaire installed within 5 feet horizontally of the pool edge must be located at least 12 feet above the maximum water level of the pool. There are many existing low-voltage lighting installations installed after the pool installation inspection has occurred where the luminaires are installed within 3 to 5 feet of the water?s edge at or near ground level, which clearly is a violation.


Section 680.22(B)(4) permits luminaires to be installed within 5 to 10 feet horizontally of the pool?s edge only where a ground-fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) protects the luminaires. Since low-voltage landscape luminaires are supplied by a low-voltage power supply, such as a transformer, providing GFCI protection on the primary side of an isolation transformer will not provide GFCI protection on the secondary side. GFCI devices will not operate at the 15-volts or less supplied by the secondary of the power supply. This leaves only two options: one is to locate all low-voltage landscape lighting at least 10 feet from the pool or fountain edge; or, two, to use a special power supply.
There are low-voltage lighting power units that are marked ?For Use with Submersible Fixtures or Submersible Pumps.? In this case, a special transformer is used that complies with the requirements in 680.23 for underwater luminaires installed below the normal water level of the pool. This transformer is specifically listed for this use and is an isolated winding type transformer with an ungrounded secondary similar to the low-voltage landscape lighting transformer, as required by 411.5(B). The low-voltage pool lighting transformer has one additional feature in its design. It has a grounded metal barrier or shield between the primary and the secondary. This metal barrier or shield prevents a direct internal short between the primary and the secondary of the transformer. If a short does occur on the primary side, it will short to the metal shield and the primary overcurrent protective device will operate. If a short develops on the secondary side to the shield, the secondary overcurrent protective device, if provided, will operate. If there isn?t a secondary overcurrent protective device and the primary is providing protection through the transformer, the primary device should operate.

looks like that makes sense.
As a member of his forum since, somewhere around 1996 or so, i guess, my opinion has remained the same on the subject.
A long time member of this forum, Bob Keis, recently passed away. He would have said, 'amps Is amps', abouth this subject.

I will say, for the most part it seems, Joe Homeowner is going down to the homecenter and purchasing regular ole run-o-the-mill landscape lights with standard transformer, then installing them around the pool, because 'The guy at HD told me to plug it into a GFCI and everything would be ok.'

 

[WinZip]

Fixtures and transformers we use are high end for these pools, supplied by the pool building contractor, Focus is one brand.

I think this section of the code needs some working on and I was shocked when our head Inspector that I've known for over 30 yrs showed me in the state wide electrical code that there was no permit required for LV 50 volts or less an at that moment he said your fine to Install LV round deck lights on the outside wall of this pool.

 

[WinZip]

What baffles the hell out of me is this.

Example , a spill over fountain that water from the pool spills over back into the pool.

Now in the fountain are 3 LV lights cord connected also with # 8 Bond wire attached to each fixture and the cords are left long enough to remove the

LV fixture for re Lamping , around 6 ft of cord on each run in conduit to a brass junction box built into the bottom of the fountain which is legal an

the Transformer must be listed as - For Use with Submersible Fixtures - now if you removed those fixtures an just set them on the concrete walk way to shine on the fountain wall your not code compliant.

Just baffles the hell out of me.

TY,

Did you read the above post an any comment if you want.

 

[shepelec]

Going 680.22 C 4 and 680. 23 it would seem that 12v fixtures are acceptable within five feet if a barrier transformer is used. And the submerged well lights for the lilly pond are ok right next to the pool as they are listed for pool use. Of course GFCI is already understood.

Does anybody else concur?

 

[glene77is]

411.4(B)
prohibits lighting systems operating at less than 30 volts to be installed less than 10 feet horizontally from the nearest edge of the water unless permitted by Article 680.
Chris

With good reason since 30 V into 6000 Ohms is 5 mA.

I have done experiments (with physiological monitoring equipment)
and found that human skin conduction can be as low at 1 KOhm.
If penetration occurs, then the resistance drops further,
and feeds around through the arterial system,
possibly through the heart, where fibrillation can occur.

The point is,
even 12 Volts could give a good bite under the right conditions.
So, there is a need to keep all electric systems away from the water.

 

[glene77is]

now if you removed those fixtures an just set them on the concrete walk way to shine on the fountain wall your not code compliant.
.

Win,

Are you saying that when you remove the fixtures,
that you are carrying the #8 bond with them ?

I think not,
and that would put an un-bonded fixture on the walkway near the pool.

Did I miss something?

 

[glene77is]

Going 680.22 C 4 and 680. 23
it would seem that 12v fixtures are acceptable within five feet
if a barrier transformer is used.
And the submerged well lights for the lilly pond are ok right next to the pool
as they are listed for pool use.
Of course GFCI is already understood.
Does anybody else concur?

Shep,

I like 680.22 C 4 and 680. 23.
This is an application where due caution necessary,
which you show by checking the code specs.
Thank you.
These are steps in the right direction.

However, technically,
I wonder if a GFCI would trip if the leakage occured
on the secondary of the LV transformer.
The Transformer is a self-referenced system,
and my first thought is that the GFCI would not see the leakage.
I think that the GFCI would only see a load,
and the hot/neutral currents on the monitored primary side would balance.

I have done experiments (with physiological monitoring equipment)
and found that human skin conduction can be as low at 1 KOhm.
If penetration occurs, then the resistance drops further,
and feeds around through the arterial system,
possibly through the heart, where fibrillation can occur.

Conclusion,
Even if the LV fixtures are fed from a transformer,
which is a self-referenced system,
the possibility remains for a problem.

 

[WinZip]

Win,

Are you saying that when you remove the fixtures,
that you are carrying the #8 bond with them ?

I think not,
and that would put an un-bonded fixture on the walkway near the pool.

Did I miss something?

Glene77,

In this fountain I'm talking about yes the LV fixtures do have a bare # 8 bonding conductor, they are brass fixtures an have to be bonded to the grid because the water circulates from the pool to the fountain an back into the pool which now make's those fixtures part of the pool , with that said the #8 bonding conductor an the cord are long enough to remove the LV fixture for re lamping BTW the fountain is 4 ft 6 in deep , now back to the original question.

Let's say the # 8 bonding conductor was long enough to remove the fixtures ( cord's an bonding conductor } an place them on the concrete walk way ( out side of the fountain ) to light up the outer walls of the fountain , at that point your NOT code compliant but then place them right back in the fountain and you ARE code compliant.

I don't know how much clearer i can explain it , baffling!

 

[M. D.]

Here is a link to the full article Win Zip cut from if any are interested... Mark Ode is no code slouch , once open click on the author link to see his credentials ..