I have questions for all the Engineers here. To what extent do you perform field investigations? What have you done before? What have you done before that maybe you shouldn't have? What have you done before that you know you shouldn't have? What do you do when you need information on an existing electrical system and its energized? Are you comfortable with opening panels up? Are we as Engineers "qualified" to open live panels, etc up? I know I probably shouldn't be doing this kind of stuff.... and I haven't yet. But I'm wondering if on some projects I haven't got the full story I'm leaving myself open to being responsible for change orders? How do you handle situations when you really don't know whats install but need to make changes?
Engineers & Field Investigations - To What Extent?
- Thread starter new_pe
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TxEngr
Senior Member
- Location
- North Florida
First, congratulations on your PE (since your handle is New_PE).
I?ve spent my life working in plants and not on the consulting side, but I?ll answer it from my work with other engineers I?ve hired.
Rarely should you trust the documentation you?re given as completely correct. Especially on older facilities. If you are going to quote a job based on that, you?ll need to put some language in the contract that the engineering is being done based on the data provided and you will not be responsible for changes orders that result from inaccurate information. I would strongly urge you to verify what you are told, otherwise you?ll get burned one day.
You should never open energized panels (even 120VAC) without a representative of the client with you. This is done for both your protection and the clients. If you work with a client for a long period of time and develop the knowledge of the plant and trust, then you may reach the point where you can open certain equipment. But for the most part, I stand by my first statement.
TxEngr
I?ve spent my life working in plants and not on the consulting side, but I?ll answer it from my work with other engineers I?ve hired.
Rarely should you trust the documentation you?re given as completely correct. Especially on older facilities. If you are going to quote a job based on that, you?ll need to put some language in the contract that the engineering is being done based on the data provided and you will not be responsible for changes orders that result from inaccurate information. I would strongly urge you to verify what you are told, otherwise you?ll get burned one day.
You should never open energized panels (even 120VAC) without a representative of the client with you. This is done for both your protection and the clients. If you work with a client for a long period of time and develop the knowledge of the plant and trust, then you may reach the point where you can open certain equipment. But for the most part, I stand by my first statement.
TxEngr
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
First of all, welcome to the forum. Secondly, no, engineers are not qualified to open live panels. Which is not to say that I have never done such a thing. But in the days of my youth, the phenomenon of arc flash had not yet been studied, so we were unaware of the presence of an unknowable danger. The very act of removing a panel cover may result in enough of a shake to jar something loose, with potentially explosive results. If you need voltage, current, or other information from within an energized panel, then you should arrange with the owner to have a member of their staff open the panel, take the readings, and close the panel, while you remain outside the ?limited approach boundary.?
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
I am not convinced that engineers (even new PEs) are unqualified to open up panels and do some investigating.IMO, whether they are qualified to do so is unrelated to their job title, although in some places union rules, plant rules, and local requirements might not allow someone without the proper license, local affiliation, or ID card to do this kind of work, regardless of qualification.
I am convinced that even qualified individuals probably should not be mucking around inside someone else's electrical panels without a representative of the owner being present, and doing the work. You might not even be able to find the right panel. Better to get people who work with them on a regular basis, and have some idea what the consequences of something going wrong might be. Plus, if they screw it up, it's not something you have to pay to fix. :grin:
I am convinced that even qualified individuals probably should not be mucking around inside someone else's electrical panels without a representative of the owner being present, and doing the work. You might not even be able to find the right panel. Better to get people who work with them on a regular basis, and have some idea what the consequences of something going wrong might be. Plus, if they screw it up, it's not something you have to pay to fix. :grin:
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mayanees
Senior Member
- Location
- Westminster, MD
- Occupation
- Electrical Engineer and Master Electrician
ditto to what TX, Charlie and Bob have stated.. and my 2 cents:
There are significant employer liability issues associated with opening up electrical panels that should keep engineers out of live equipment - ranging from arc-flash burns to lost production. As Charlie mentioned, the act of opening a door could shake something loose causing a problem, or there could be an unrelated coincident failure in the room at the time you open the door that you'll be responsible for - whether your fault or not.
The best approach is to request the info, and if you're there stay out of the Arc Flash boundary - unless of course you've been trained/qualified to the extent that the company you're working for issues you PPE.
I grew up in industry, and wow have things changed! You requested past experiences - I heard a 12470 V switchgear buzzing and opened up the back of the gear to view the dust tracking along the termination - then invited everyone in to view it! This was 1985 or so. How things have changed!
But the dilemma that faces engineers now is that you may be hired to do a Power Study (Fault, Coordination and Arc Flash), and you can't access the information because you can't open the panels while energized.. like a catch-22. You can't determine the required level of PPE until you do the analysis, and you can't do the analysis without wearing the proper PPE to access the panel. (NFPA 70E, 130.7 tables for PPE are a possibility until calculations are done)
I was once very cavalier about accessing panels, having responsibility for an industrial plant's power system for 15 years, doing IR scans, troubleshooting, etc in open gear. Fortunately nothing ever went wrong. But now that I know of the dangers associated with a given installation, I have a HUGE respect. I used to think nothing of opening the transition section of a 2500 kVA 480V transformer - between the breakers and the secondary of the transformer, or opening up the transformer itself to, say look at the fans package. But now I know that there's no PPE that could protect me from an Arc-Flash with that system - it's HRC Dangerous. So even though it's not likely that it will flash when I'm there - I know the consequences are most assuredly death, and a horrible one at that.
So, I say request the necessary data, and put words to that effect in your proposals. Or get them to shut down - at which point you're free to open things up.
I'm a PE and an electrician, and 25 years experienced, and I've finally concluded that there's too much liability and danger associated with energized electrical equipment for me to access it energized - leave that to the trained/qualified electricians.
John M
I guess I should say that I still open panel covers and swgr breaker doors to photograph/document breaker types and settings.. but it's all dead-front. My contention is that I'm not "interacting" so it's safe, but the argument could be made that I should be suited up. But I'm also very experienced and know enough what not to do while gathering the data.
There are significant employer liability issues associated with opening up electrical panels that should keep engineers out of live equipment - ranging from arc-flash burns to lost production. As Charlie mentioned, the act of opening a door could shake something loose causing a problem, or there could be an unrelated coincident failure in the room at the time you open the door that you'll be responsible for - whether your fault or not.
The best approach is to request the info, and if you're there stay out of the Arc Flash boundary - unless of course you've been trained/qualified to the extent that the company you're working for issues you PPE.
I grew up in industry, and wow have things changed! You requested past experiences - I heard a 12470 V switchgear buzzing and opened up the back of the gear to view the dust tracking along the termination - then invited everyone in to view it! This was 1985 or so. How things have changed!
But the dilemma that faces engineers now is that you may be hired to do a Power Study (Fault, Coordination and Arc Flash), and you can't access the information because you can't open the panels while energized.. like a catch-22. You can't determine the required level of PPE until you do the analysis, and you can't do the analysis without wearing the proper PPE to access the panel. (NFPA 70E, 130.7 tables for PPE are a possibility until calculations are done)
I was once very cavalier about accessing panels, having responsibility for an industrial plant's power system for 15 years, doing IR scans, troubleshooting, etc in open gear. Fortunately nothing ever went wrong. But now that I know of the dangers associated with a given installation, I have a HUGE respect. I used to think nothing of opening the transition section of a 2500 kVA 480V transformer - between the breakers and the secondary of the transformer, or opening up the transformer itself to, say look at the fans package. But now I know that there's no PPE that could protect me from an Arc-Flash with that system - it's HRC Dangerous. So even though it's not likely that it will flash when I'm there - I know the consequences are most assuredly death, and a horrible one at that.
So, I say request the necessary data, and put words to that effect in your proposals. Or get them to shut down - at which point you're free to open things up.
I'm a PE and an electrician, and 25 years experienced, and I've finally concluded that there's too much liability and danger associated with energized electrical equipment for me to access it energized - leave that to the trained/qualified electricians.
John M
I guess I should say that I still open panel covers and swgr breaker doors to photograph/document breaker types and settings.. but it's all dead-front. My contention is that I'm not "interacting" so it's safe, but the argument could be made that I should be suited up. But I'm also very experienced and know enough what not to do while gathering the data.
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tish53
Member
- Location
- richmond, VA
Being a engineer does not "qualify" someone to open a panel. I work in the field all the time and feel I am qualified due to the numerous arc flash saftey training sessions I have attended, not because I am an engineer.
I would urge you to get some training so you can know what you don't know.
The hazards are very real but not always obvious. Proper precautions and proper PPE are essential to investigate live panels, but finding a time to deenergize the panel is by far the safest way to gather information.
I also agree with some of the other posts, field verification is very important. Many industrial plants have modifications that are never documented. Shame on those responible, (probably engineers)
I would urge you to get some training so you can know what you don't know.
The hazards are very real but not always obvious. Proper precautions and proper PPE are essential to investigate live panels, but finding a time to deenergize the panel is by far the safest way to gather information.
I also agree with some of the other posts, field verification is very important. Many industrial plants have modifications that are never documented. Shame on those responible, (probably engineers)
I agree with that 100%, and I hope that's what Charlie meant when he said:
Being an engineer doesn't necessarily "qualify" you to open panels, but I don't think it necessarily "disqualifies" you either. If you have the proper training, and the proper safety equipment, and the client doesn't object (and a host of other "ifs" I'm sure others can think of) then I don't see a problem.
That said, I will sometimes open equipment with handle operated doors for certain clients. But I almost never open anything that requires a screwdriver.
Most clients that have a maintenance dept, or contractors on site will usually provide someone to open equipment for the asking.
Steve
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
You have my meaning right. It would not be the fact that a person has the engineering degree that provides the qualification. The degree is not enough. You can become qualified to do this type of inspection whether or not you have a degree. The dangerous engineers are the ones who think the degree gives them all they need, to safely do electrical work in the field.
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