told to do something against code

[JJWalecka]

I was hoping to pick the brains of the many talented and experienced people of this forum.
I?m a master electrician in the state of Massachusetts. I?m a big fan of staying in your place and doing as you?re told. If the boss wants something done yes sir or yes maim is the right answer in my book.


Do you do what?s right regardless if the boss told you not to? When the crap hits the fan you have nothing in writing that states you said not to do it, it falls on you.

If you were told to do something that you know was wrong, or noncode compliant, is it your fault is the job fails inspection?

In the past I have told the lead man and or Forman that the electric room was too small, that the sprinkler pipes shouldn?t be in the dedicated space above the panels, you can?t mount to that piece of the structure and such.

Should I just keep my mouth shut? I have pride and if the installation fails it bothers me.

If an installation might get someone KILLED then I feel it is my duty to say something. I have had my life threatened and threats of losing my job.

I?m only thirty years old and wet behind the ears to a point. I have a great deal to learn so I don?t want to come across as a know it all or arrogant.

 

[iwire]

I was hoping to pick the brains of the many talented and experienced people of this forum.
I?m a master electrician in the state of Massachusetts. I?m a big fan of staying in your place and doing as you?re told. If the boss wants something done yes sir or yes maim is the right answer in my book.


Do you do what?s right regardless if the boss told you not to? When the crap hits the fan you have nothing in writing that states you said not to do it, it falls on you.

If you were told to do something that you know was wrong, or noncode compliant, is it your fault is the job fails inspection?

In the past I have told the lead man and or Forman that the electric room was too small, that the sprinkler pipes shouldn?t be in the dedicated space above the panels, you can?t mount to that piece of the structure and such.

Should I just keep my mouth shut? I have pride and if the installation fails it bothers me.

If an installation might get someone KILLED then I feel it is my duty to say something. I have had my life threatened and threats of losing my job.

I?m only thirty years old and wet behind the ears to a point. I have a great deal to learn so I don?t want to come across as a know it all or arrogant.

I am of the opinion that if you do not like the working conditions or situations it is up to you to leave and find someplace else to work.

I do not feel it is your place or your job to straighten out the boss or the company unless you have been asked to.

Obviously I would not do something that I feel would be a danger but I would consider looking for another place to work.

 

[JJWalecka]

?I do not feel it is your place or your job to straighten out the boss or the company unless you have been asked to.? That?s how I feel.

?Obviously I would not do something that I feel would be a danger but I would consider looking for another place to work.?

I am no longer employed with the company where I had the most issues.

It?s easier said than done to just leave a place and find a new place to work in this economy. I hate whiners so I just buck up and suck it up.

Thank you for your feedback

 

[Rewire]

From an owner point of view I did not hire my people from the neck down. If an install is not correct then I expect it to be brought to the attention of the leadman and corrected if not then it should be brought to my attention.

 

[JJWalecka]

Rewire
"From an owner point of view I did not hire my people from the neck down. If an install is not correct then I expect it to be brought to the attention of the leadman and corrected if not then it should be brought to my attention"

"I have had my life threatened" kinda speaks for itself....

Thank you for your point of view

 

[growler]

It?s easier said than done to just leave a place and find a new place to work in this economy. I hate whiners so I just buck up and suck it up.

It's not always easy to find another job but there are things you can do to protect yourself.

Keep a written record of things that happen, any conversations and suggestions and any action taken or not taken.

Written records are considered much more valid than memory alone.

 

[iwire]

From an owner point of view I did not hire my people from the neck down. If an install is not correct then I expect it to be brought to the attention of the leadman and corrected if not then it should be brought to my attention.

You are are assuming the owner was unaware and I am assuming the owner is aware.

My experience has been that owners always say they where 'unaware' and that it is always the fault of someone else, but IMO the owner sets the standards.

Perfect example of it in post 19 of this thread.

Short Ground

 

[iwire]

It?s easier said than done to just leave a place and find a new place to work in this economy.

Without a doubt, and in this economy people are much more likely to take short cuts.

But who said life would be easy?

 

[petersonra]

I was hoping to pick the brains of the many talented and experienced people of this forum.
I’m a master electrician in the state of Massachusetts. I’m a big fan of staying in your place and doing as you’re told. If the boss wants something done yes sir or yes maim is the right answer in my book.
I agree for the most part.

Do you do what’s right regardless if the boss told you not to? When the crap hits the fan you have nothing in writing that states you said not to do it, it falls on you.
Depends on what he told me to do. It's not unusual for people to think they are being told to do something that is wrong, or against code, or some how bad or wrong in some way, and to later found out that was not the case. I would want to be 100% certain before I would get real worked up.

If you were told to do something that you know was wrong, or noncode compliant, is it your fault is the job fails inspection?
Is it your responsibility to meet code? We sit here every day and can't decide if a porch is really a sun room. The code is not necessarily what you might think it is, or what you were once taught, or what is widely believed.

In the past I have told the lead man and or Forman that the electric room was too small, that the sprinkler pipes shouldn’t be in the dedicated space above the panels, you can’t mount to that piece of the structure and such.

(b) Foreign Systems. The area above the dedicated
space required by 110.26(F)(1)(a) shall be permitted to contain
foreign systems, provided protection is installed to
avoid damage to the electrical equipment from condensation,
leaks, or breaks in such foreign systems.
(c) Sprinkler Protection. Sprinkler protection shall be
permitted for the dedicated space where the piping complies
with this section.

Should I just keep my mouth shut? I have pride and if the installation fails it bothers me.
I think if you are sure that something really is in violation of some code, you have a moral obligation to tell your boss. You don't have to be a PITA about it though.

If an installation might get someone KILLED then I feel it is my duty to say something. I have had my life threatened and threats of losing my job.
Threatening your life is a crime. Did you report this crime to the police?

I’m only thirty years old and wet behind the ears to a point. I have a great deal to learn so I don’t want to come across as a know it all or arrogant.
You already sound like you think you know more than your boss. And maybe you do. No one here knows for sure one way or the other.

For some situations there are no good answers. But for most, there are.

 

[Rewire]

You are are assuming the owner was unaware and I am assuming the owner is aware.

My experience has been that owners always say they where 'unaware' and that it is always the fault of someone else, but IMO the owner sets the standards.

Perfect example of it in post 19 of this thread.

Short Ground

Some owners are also the installer but many are not.some owners are willing to look the other way when short cuts are done and those are the ones that usually blame others. I have had employees try and cut corners and they didn't last long and some were very experienced hands.I have a rule that if you screw it up you fix it on your time or you go down the road.It would be nice to be able to supervise every job but it is just not practical so I rely on the skill and knowledge of my leadmen.I also undedrstand the buck stops with me and sometimes the only fix is to terminate the employee.

 

[JJWalecka]

I mentioned no names to protect the innocent.

By no means am I a know it all, a tattle tale or a kiss butt. Never kissed butt never will.

Iwire ?But who said life would be easy?? Life is what you make of it, sir.

I?m not talking about little things like using a torque screwdriver for receptacle (which I have never seen done) or other petty things which everyone has done at one point or another.

petersonra ?You already sound like you think you know more than your boss. And maybe you do. No one here knows for sure one way or the other.?
What I know, I know? what I don?t, I don?t. I?ll be the first to say I have never done that or I need assistance completing this installation. There are many aspects to the electrical field.
I have respect for others, my elders and know my place. I love to learn and try to keep an open mind.

growler Thank you for the intelligent suggestion.

 

[JohnE]

Really difficult to say what I'd do given the somewhat vagueness of the OP. How about one or two explanations of the most egregious (sp) violations he has instructed you do install?

I'm inclined to say I'd be looking for another job, but I also know how flat the job market is. But I'd be constantly looking if I were unhappy.

I'm also inclined to say that if the violations didn't appear to be a real danger to anyone I'd just roll with it. Again an example would help.

 

[GUNNING]

ya get what ya pay for.

ya get what ya pay for.

He who writes the check is always right.

 

[K2500]

I have a rule that if you screw it up you fix it on your time or you go down the road.

Well, that's definitely not leading by example. See Application of Principles.

 

[qcroanoke]

From an owner point of view I did not hire my people from the neck down. If an install is not correct then I expect it to be brought to the attention of the leadman and corrected if not then it should be brought to my attention.

I do like that attitude!
I worked in quality control for many years and now i work in engineering and my responsibility is, #1 does it work and match the prints? and #2 is it code compliant?
#2 was a battle for awhile until they realized I was right and they fixed it. But, I always had my code book in hand and proved to them they were wrong. Always be sure you're right and pick your battles.
And come here and ask if you're not sure. I've learned a lot here.

 

[__dan]

dynamite

dynamite

The first time I heard they would put a stick of dynamite in my tool belt was about 1983. I said 'yeah that would work' or you could rig an elevator. That was after I told them they could not pick me up and throw me off the building, that would not work.

As a subcontractor, they never had problems with electrical. I worked for some real scumbags, some were also my friends and it was a point of pride when they showed me stuff they were lying and cheating over.

I'm in that situation now, never miss a chance to screw me, but I expect that as their human nature. I do not respond or escalate. For stuff I have nothing to do with they have problems, code violations. Recently caught them again using RIB pilot duty relays for motor loads after having corrected the same and having told them it did not meet code, was unprofessional, a definite purpose contactor would cost them $14. Lots of bigger stuff, pretty much eveything they touch. The guys are not afraid of blowing something up, they already know something will blow up (they don't know why). Their game plan is to blame someone else and be there responding to it once the boss is looking. They are afraid of getting caught for it, their negligence, non feasance, so they fear my emails telling them in advance that there's a problem or a code violation and a probably easy way to fix it. They don't want that, they want their ass kissed, so they're usually out to cost me my check.

I've posted this link before but it bears repeating:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

The thing to take away from the link is that there are people who get a rush from causing pain to others, it's called addiction to power and is very common in the genetic code, prehistorical genetic programming. It is not rare to find people who care not at all if their instructions are right or wrong, they only care that they give the order and someone else pays the price for it. This game they play sharply.

Point is that it could very well cost you a job and paycheck. Of course do not violate code with work you directly are responsible for, there are other ways to play the game. My assessment is that if they are even aware of the cost in time and materials it would take to build quality, it does not enter the mind, they wake up in the morning out to cheat. That's the time it may be wise to play dumb and be a boat anchor, they are so help them with that.

It's always easier to get another job if you are currently employed, it looks better.

For problems that can be solved verbally I usually try that for a minute or two, then stop. Verbal, imo, is worthless, no expectations. I always use email, then a year down the road when a power that they fear wants something made right, I respond ' please reference the email dated 1/16/09' when I recommended a change to meet code'.

There's also the predator and prey paradigm. If you fear losing work / money over your efforts, you have the prey mindset. The predator is not the one who costs you your job, that person is a dummy. The predator does not make an effort, expose himself, unless there's the promise of a gain, a reward, a meal, a beneficial known expected outcome. The predator waits and declines the high risk low reward effort and acts when the effort has the promise of the desired result. Not all battles have to be fought, for the dummies you may be able to stand aside while they go through rehab, divorce, bankruptcy.

 

[electricmanscott]

Really difficult to say what I'd do given the somewhat vagueness of the OP. How about one or two explanations of the most egregious (sp) violations he has instructed you do install?

I'm inclined to say I'd be looking for another job, but I also know how flat the job market is. But I'd be constantly looking if I were unhappy.

I'm also inclined to say that if the violations didn't appear to be a real danger to anyone I'd just roll with it. Again an example would help.

I'm pretty much with John on this. For the most part the rules are the rules and they apply to everybody so you have to follow them. BUT, what is the danger level? I have knowingly violated the code, many times. Everybody has and if they say they haven't they are lying. If a "boss" can't respect the fact that you prefer to do the right thing then the "boss" is probably a dirtbag anyway so you're better off looking for a new one.

He who writes the check is always right.

Or so they like to think.

 

[haskindm]

The OP States that he is a Master Electrician. Is the job being done under your license? If it is, then you are responsible for any violations that occur. If the job is not under your license, find out whose license is being used. That is the person that needs to know about violations or possible violations as that is the person that will be held responsible. If that person has any ethics (or brains) at all, they will appreciate you trying to protect them by doing things right and pointing out things that are questionable.

 

[JohnE]

The OP States that he is a Master Electrician. Is the job being done under your license? If it is, then you are responsible for any violations that occur. If the job is not under your license, find out whose license is being used. That is the person that needs to know about violations or possible violations as that is the person that will be held responsible. If that person has any ethics (or brains) at all, they will appreciate you trying to protect them by doing things right and pointing out things that are questionable.

I'm almost certain that the job is not being done under OP's license.

 

[stevenje]

If the boss wants something done yes sir or yes maim is the right answer in my book.

Not in my book. You only walk through this world once. Stand up for yourself.