GFCI testing with no equipment ground

[spsmeltzer]

I am working on a fairly old house that the customer wants to sell. In the kitchen and bathrooms the GFCI?s have no equipment ground. Attempting to test the GFCIs with a GFCI tester such the A. W. Sperry GFI -302A shows all them bad. Testing them with the push-to-test button shows them to be good. In the 2008 NEC ( and Previous, I believe ) 403.D(3)(b) and (c) indicates that I need to put a label on them that says ?NO EQUIPMENT GROUND?

Checking this tester indicates that the actuation of the test button puts a 15.55 K OHM resistance between the hot and ground pins. Having no ground is quite problematic when the test is predicated on hot-to-ground current flow.

1. Can I assume that since the test button on the GFCI indicates a good condition that they are safe, or am I putting myself into a potentially major liability situation by that assumption?

2. Is there a better type of tester available that will test a GFCI with ?NO EQUIPMENT GROUND??

3. Is this even compliant with 403.D(3) since it is required GFCI and not just replacing a 2 pin receptacle with a 3 pin GFCI protected recepticle?

Many Thanks

Stephen P. Smeltzer, Texas Journeyman Electrician

 

[tom baker]

Your tester and any GFCI tester won't work where there is no EGC. The GFCI test button creates an imbalance from hot-thru the torroid coil, to neutral. Your GFCI tester goes from hot to ground. No ground and it won't work.
Just replace the 2 wires with GFCIs, put on the required sticker and call it a day. You probably should explain to the HO that TVSS devices with show a fault.

 

[roger]

The only approved /recognized way to test a GFCI is with the onboard test button. GFCI indicators are convenient but only work on devices/circuits wired with an EGC. In your case, as Tom said, all is fine.

Roger

 

[LarryFine]

Stephen, welcome to the forum!

1. Can I assume that since the test button on the GFCI indicates a good condition that they are safe, or am I putting myself into a potentially major liability situation by that assumption?

Yes, and you shouldn't be, because you're following the manufacturers' directions.

2. Is there a better type of tester available that will test a GFCI with ?NO EQUIPMENT GROUND??

No, and only a 3-to-2-prong 'cheater' with the green wire grounded elsewhere would work.

3. Is this even compliant with 403.D(3) since it is required GFCI and not just replacing a 2 pin receptacle with a 3 pin GFCI protected recepticle?

That article number does not compute.

 

[bobserrano]

All the newer GFCI receptacles are "Smart Lock GFCIs " if there is a small padlock embossed on the GFCI receptacle. These GFCIs will not reset if there is a problem with the wiring or the GFCI is malfunctioning and not providing "protection for personnel"

With the "No Equipment Ground" label you are putting others on alert that if you plug in an appliance with a ground prong that you are not protecting the appliance in the event of a ground fault situation. But you are still protecting people.

Test the GFCI with it's own test and reset button. If it works, install the label and you are good to go.

 

[spsmeltzer]

oops

oops

Larry Fine, Thank you for the comment about 403 not computing. I don't know where the 3 came from it is actually 406.D.(3)(b) and (c) regarding the replacing 2 prong plug with a GFCI. Ouch, what a way to start, messing up the code reference. Thanks again. spsmeltzer

 

[Split Bolt]

If this is an older house as you stated, stick one lead of your wiggy in the hot or neutral slot of the GFI and touch the other to the metal drain fitting in the sink. Unless the plumber changed over to plastic on the drain pipe, it should trip. Or you can touch it to a copper water pipe in the base cabinet.

 

[Hendrix]

If this is an older house as you stated, stick one lead of your wiggy in the hot or neutral slot of the GFI and touch the other to the metal drain fitting in the sink. Unless the plumber changed over to plastic on the drain pipe, it should trip. Or you can touch it to a copper water pipe in the base cabinet.

That won't wash if you're on 08. (must be tamper resistant)

 

[480sparky]

That won't wash if you're on 08. (must be tamper resistant)

Easy to fix:

 

[Hendrix]

Easy to fix:

They still sell those

 

[480sparky]

They still sell those

I'm sure some do-gooder will finally get them outlawed someday.

 

[LarryFine]

They still sell those

Well, they certainly still have pics of them.

 

[Split Bolt]

In each of my old power tool cases, that I haven't opened for years due to cordless technology, I have one of those!