Cost Hot or Cold

[iwire]

Guess Linemen must be exempt from OSHA?

Not exempt, just different.

OSHA rules apply to them but they are not the same OSHA rules that apply to those outside of the utilities.

 

[markstg]

It is just the law, you decide to follow it or not. Define "less costly", are you including the possibel tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars OSHA fine? How about the average cost of a serious esurvivable electrical accident of $17.6M??

EC's are getting busted and fined by OSHA every day for working hot, times are changing.

Which is why I will not let the EC change the service hot, even though he says that he normally does not do that. Irregardless of the cost I would feel terrible if an injury did occur, because I didn't demand they do it cold.

 

[Ruff-N]

The older I get, the older I want to get.

Larry put that on a t-shirt and market that CHA-CHING $$$$

 

[Ruff-N]

Have you seen the PPE measures that Linemen take when working hot? They are certainly as safe as can be.

Also the training that goes with using all the PPE the POCO uses that says alot, for safety. Cause if its primary or secondary voltage you can never let your gaurd down, one small mistake could be your last.

 

[readydave8]

I feel the same way.

me too..................

 

[busman]

Also the training that goes with using all the PPE the POCO uses that says alot, for safety. Cause if its primary or secondary voltage you can never let your gaurd down, one small mistake could be your last.

Wow, you haven't been paying attention if you haven't seen lineman let their guard down around the secondaries (or else your linemen are different). I had a call where the contractor never terminated the service entrance cable. It was just touching the lugs. Called Dominion to pull the meter. Lineman showed up and just grabbed the 4/0 in the panel and pulled it out (barehanded) and said "Yeah, that's loose". Just one of many stories. At least I have a healthy respect and wear my PPE whenever I work Hot.

Mark

 

[jmellc]

How many people do any of you know that have been injured or killed connecting or disconnecting a service? I don't know a one; I guess there have been a few somewhere. I guess we can't do any more troubleshooting on live circuits either? How else do you do it? Have a person at the panel turning breaker off and on as you check 1 thing, then another? OSHA, EPA, on top of state and local bureaucrats; no one will be able to make a living much longer. Hard enough already. Does the person at the panel have to be certified in some way to know off from on?

What next, do we have to verify structural safety of every building we enter? Pay for a safety study in an old lady's slum house when we go in to change out a light or 2? Let's see, about a $150 job or so. Study would cost maybe $500? There will be 2 lights not replaced. I've been to lots of houses with very weak flooring. Can't go to any of them any more. Same with any roof jobs, can't afford structural safety studies for the roof. Is the ground solid enough to hold a ladder? Better get someone to verify that. Who would that be, a geologist, a landscaper? Gotta be certified?

Will we have to start wearing safety harnesses in attics? Hard hats too? Hard hats under the house? What if the hard hat falls off and I get scratched by a nail? Fine for not having a chin strap? Or have I missed it, are these rules already?

Does an OSHA fine stand until you have the $ to pay it? Can they garnish future income, etc. like the IRS?

 

[vegasmark]

i only do hot work. thats why this plant hired me: because i'm qualified to do it. qualified meaning i know how to do it safely and efficiently.

 

[LarryFine]

i only do hot work. thats why this plant hired me: because i'm qualified to do it. qualified meaning i know how to do it safely and efficiently.

Okay, so what's your take on this thread so far? Who do you side with? The paranoid or the reckless?

 

[vegasmark]

Okay, so what's your take on this thread so far? Who do you side with? The paranoid or the reckless?

Neither. I'm not going open a breaker to change out a receptacle, but I will when I'm troubleshooting a 480v motor. IMO its up to the electrician doing the work to take into account all of the conditions in effect to do the work safely. If you feel comfortable and confident that you can change out a service hot, there's nothing reckless about it.

 

[iwire]

Interesting that I see you listed your age as 24, that means you are just entering the the age category with the highest rate of electrocution on the job.

IMO its up to the electrician doing the work to take into account all of the conditions in effect to do the work safely. If you feel comfortable and confident that you can change out a service hot, there's nothing reckless about it.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but it does not change the rules.

 

[btharmy]

I guess I didn't answer your question. If I had to coordinate with a POCO I would set the time and then I would bill them for any extra time you spend waiting. Their rules will change quickly when they start paying for your time.

I actually told the POCO here that I would do that the next time I had to wait for them. They send they have paid out before to other EC's.

Am I the only one here that is not familiar with back charging the utility for wait time? I have waited for hours, literally 2, 3, or more sometimes. They would laugh if I even brought up the subject. I am better off to call for an emergency disconnect than to schedule a shutdown. Charging the utility isn't even an option around here. Wish it was.

 

[jumper]

Maybe I am a bit of a risk taker. Okay, Chris Kennedy has been in the car with me driving so I better be straight. I am a big risk taker :grin:

At least Chris was up front and could see what you were aiming at or trying to miss.:grin:

Reminds me of a guy I met once that drove into a high security area at a power plant to look around, despite all the bright yellow warning signs saying " Authorized Personal Only" that were posted.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

At least Chris was up front and could see what you were aiming at or trying to miss.:grin:

Reminds me of a guy I met once that drove into a high security area at a power plant to look around, despite all the bright yellow warning signs saying " Authorized Personal Only" that were posted.

Okay, but those signs were for other people, not us. I wanted you guys to see the power plant. It's not like we got out and started disconnecting anything-- maybe next time we'll bring our tools-- well a gauss meter anyway. :grin:

 

[yucan2]

Am I the only one here that is not familiar with back charging the utility for wait time? I have waited for hours, literally 2, 3, or more sometimes. They would laugh if I even brought up the subject. I am better off to call for an emergency disconnect than to schedule a shutdown. Charging the utility isn't even an option around here. Wish it was.

No you're not. I've not heard of that either.

Called POCO out for one of the few times I have in many years just last week. 1 hour late for the disconnect, 7 hours late for the reconnect.

When technician finally arrived he says, "sorry I'm late, as he wiped sleep from his eyes, you should have mentioned customer reserve oxygen tank low on your reconnect request". You gotta luv it. :roll:

 

[satcom]

No you're not. I've not heard of that either.

Called POCO out for one of the few times I have in many years just last week. 1 hour late for the disconnect, 7 hours late for the reconnect.

When technician finally arrived he says, "sorry I'm late, as he wiped sleep from his eyes, you should have mentioned customer reserve oxygen tank low on your reconnect request". You gotta luv it. :roll:

Many states have laws, where any company that schedules a service appointment and does not arrive in the window they promised, will have to compensate the customer for the lost time.

 

[satcom]

This is a brief look at how the missed appointment laws started http://ezinearticles.com/?Your-Cali...-Law-Protects-Cable-TV-Subscribers&id=1093059 and now just about every business has to be careful when making appointments.

 

[Ruff-N]

Wow, you haven't been paying attention if you haven't seen lineman let their guard down around the secondaries (or else your linemen are different). I had a call where the contractor never terminated the service entrance cable. It was just touching the lugs. Called Dominion to pull the meter. Lineman showed up and just grabbed the 4/0 in the panel and pulled it out (barehanded) and said "Yeah, that's loose". Just one of many stories. At least I have a healthy respect and wear my PPE whenever I work Hot.

Mark

Now lets not miss quote I said " You cant ever let your guard down working with electricity be it primary or secondary, cause one false step or getting to comfrotable around these voltages can cause injury or death, or as I stated "Letting your guard down" Yes lineman are human and are subject to making mistakes and injuries and DEATH! And training on the use of PPE (and its not just about putting on an FR shirt and hot gloves) and working on energized equipment is also one of the keys to working safe, I would venture to say all lineman have such certification, but still the chance of accidents happening each and everyday is still there.

 

[growler]

You have to charge more because the power co may show up later than yourself.

If you have to wait for the utility to disconnect you will need to cover all the waiting time, and charge the customer.

On an underground feed service change I will need to schedule a shutdown and reconnect. I have to work with both the power company and the inspection department. I have to have a temp power release because odds are I'm not going to have the job completed when the inspector gets there but at least he sees a job in progress and he/she signs off to have power restored. The final inspection will happen the next day.

If the power company is late shutting down then how much time do I lose? Normally not much. If I can I schedule for 8-9 AM but Im not waiting around doing nothing. I cut the meter seal and make the areas that I'm working on safe. Then I start to change the panel, pull out old feeder cable and install new, drive new ground rods, there are many ways I can keep busy and keep the job going while waiting for the power company.

Now once the inspector shows up and calls for a reconnect all I need to have finished is the Meter base or the Meter/Main and it safe for them to turn power back on and I can still work the rest of job cold.

I try to do as much work as I can and take as little risk as possible.

The price is based on how difficult I think the service change is going to be. Working with POCO takes a little extra time but then again I don't need to mount a new mast, heck I have done a service change and never needed to get a ladder off the van (nice). :grin:

 

[hurk27]

Around here our utility has been so understaffed that it can take days to get a reconnect or disconnection, I'm waiting on one right now I put in last week for an underground service, and the problem here is scheduling around when they decide to show up, as there is no set time or date when they will show up, and when they do show up they will call you which how do you schedule your work around this, Its a nightmare, since now you have a customer with no power and you have to pick up off a job your on and go do this change out, or in this case install a service rated transfer switch, then call them back to do a hook up, which will take another day or more if they are busy. so for the most part if it is an over head service we are only left with the option of doing our own disconnects and reconnects, and we have the POCO's blessing on this as you can see in the POCO standards I posted earlier, so we are left with waring PPE's and being careful as we can when handling the service conductors since they are dangerous, more from a flash point but also can be a shock hazard.