Dilemma

[Lady Engineer]

Hi guys,

My supervisor is very adamant about our in-field electrical distribution surverys. I had an incident yesterday, where the Building Engineer did not want to take the cover off of the 200A/480V panel that was live. Now my boss says, I whenever I survey, I must take the cover off of all panels both 208V and 480V. I told him I'm squimish about taking the cover off of 208V, but 480V I will not do it...It's dangerous. The company doesn't have insurance to cover it, nor does my job description say I must do it. I took some flack for it, and I don't care!

What shall I do about getting my boss to stop his railroading? I like my boss, but he's an old school guy, who's been around for 30-35 years. However, I think what he's making us do is irresponsible, and inconsiderate. Especially since we don't have the proper equipment to deal with arc flash, and live equipment.

How shall I approach this...

 

[cowboyjwc]

I would say that it's not in the scope of your work and also tell him that if he thinks it is that he should provide the proper PPE.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I agree with cowboy. Have them provide the protective gear necessary to protect you. I am definitely squeamish as I should be because my dad died from arc flash after 40 days in the burn center. It is a horrible way to go.

 

[jim dungar]

How shall I approach this...

Contact OSHA?

How about your boss's boss?

 

[zog]

Hi guys,

My supervisor is very adamant about our in-field electrical distribution surverys. I had an incident yesterday, where the Building Engineer did not want to take the cover off of the 200A/480V panel that was live. Now my boss says, I whenever I survey, I must take the cover off of all panels both 208V and 480V. I told him I'm squimish about taking the cover off of 208V, but 480V I will not do it...It's dangerous. The company doesn't have insurance to cover it, nor does my job description say I must do it. I took some flack for it, and I don't care!

What shall I do about getting my boss to stop his railroading? I like my boss, but he's an old school guy, who's been around for 30-35 years. However, I think what he's making us do is irresponsible, and inconsiderate. Especially since we don't have the proper equipment to deal with arc flash, and live equipment.

How shall I approach this...

He needs to read the employer responsibilities in Article 110 of the NFPA 70E.

 

[raider1]

Removing bolted covers to expose live parts is a hazardous task.

What is the reason to remove the cover while the panel is energized?

An energized work permit may be required to perform this task.

Also the proper PPE must be used if it is justified to remove the panel covers while the panel is energized.

Chris

 

[charlie b]

I recently attended a one-day seminar on arc flash. Here are two very surprising things I learned.
1. If there is a ?slightly loose? item within a panel (and how can you tell if there is before you take off the cover?), then the very act of taking off the cover could be enough to knock it completely loose, and start an arc flash incident. So no, it is not safe to simply remove the cover.
2. In the event an employee is injured in an arc flash incident, if there is evidence that the company was negligent in providing protective measures, the company?s insurance might not be the only target of a lawsuit. The injured person (or the family) can sue the person?s supervisor (i.e., go after the boss? personal assets).

Tell that to your boss, and see what response you get.

You did the right thing, Patricia. Stand your ground.

 

[petersonra]

Perhaps a long chat with your boss is in order.

It's likely that most 208V panel boards will not have an arc flash potential, but without the proper study and documentation there is no sure way to know.

The 480V PBs are more likely to have arc flash potential, but a surprising number don't as determined by a proper study.

You still need the proper PPE gear no matter what, even if the arc flash hazard has been determined to be non-existant.

In some respects the requirements are a PITA, because for the vast majority of situations there is no hazard, other then electrocution. But until a study actually shows what the hazards are for a specific piece of gear, I think you have to assume there is an arc flash hazard and not work on it live.

 

[TxEngr]

In order to perform the work he want you to do, several things must be in place first since this would be considered to present an arc flash hazard.

1. You must be provided with the necessary training to perform the work and eliminate the hazard.
2. You must be provided with the necessary PPE for the hazard, most likely HC4 ?moon suit?.
3. You must complete an energized work permit which would be signed by your supervisor as well as the plant manager.

I suspect that the last item will eliminate the entire discussion since no one will want to sign this document accepting responsibility if you are injured. In particular, the plant manager doesn?t want this to happen. Push back on all three items but particularly the hot work permit with all signatures.

 

[petersonra]

In order to perform the work he want you to do, several things must be in place first since this would be considered to present an arc flash hazard.

1. You must be provided with the necessary training to perform the work and eliminate the hazard.
2. You must be provided with the necessary PPE for the hazard, most likely HC4 ?moon suit?.
3. You must complete an energized work permit which would be signed by your supervisor as well as the plant manager.

I suspect that the last item will eliminate the entire discussion since no one will want to sign this document accepting responsibility if you are injured. In particular, the plant manager doesn?t want this to happen. Push back on all three items but particularly the hot work permit with all signatures.

Why would she need a moon suit if a study had already been performed showing there was no arc flash hazard?

 

[charlie b]

It's likely that most 208V panel boards will not have an arc flash potential, but without the proper study and documentation there is no sure way to know.

2. You must be provided with the necessary PPE for the hazard, most likely HC4 ?moon suit?.

I think the truth lies between these two extremes. A 208 volt panel certainly does have an arc flash potential. More often than not, it will be a ?level 0? hazard, the lowest energy level and the one with the lowest level of PPE requirements. But unless you are dealing with a 480 volt board that is close to a main service board with a high ampere capacity, you are not likely to have a severe enough arc flash hazard to warrant the moon suit.

The basic requirement here begins with a study, and ends with the placement of arc flash labels. Then comes training, and before anyone opens a panel they have to don the PPE that is appropriate for the level of hazard, as described on the label.

 

[dicklaxt]

All I can say is don't do it, its not something anyone needs to see or be involved in no matter what the need,unless it is absolutely necessary from a safety issue and then only done by qualified personnel.

In the scenario I am quoting there were no deaths but two electricians and one engineer will never work in the industry again.Listening to a person screaming from flash burns is horrible and in this case it was preventable.


dick

 

[zog]

Removing bolted covers to expose live parts is a hazardous task.

What is the reason to remove the cover while the panel is energized?

An energized work permit may be required to perform this task.

Also the proper PPE must be used if it is justified to remove the panel covers while the panel is energized.

Chris

If the purpose of removing the covers is for visual inspection only (Which I suspect is the case here) an EEWP is not required, 70E lists this specifically.

But proper PPE and training are still required to be provided by the employer and used by the worker.

 

[zog]

Perhaps a long chat with your boss is in order.

It's likely that most 208V panel boards will not have an arc flash potential, but without the proper study and documentation there is no sure way to know.

.

Says who? I would have to argue with that statement.

 

[wireguru]

I recently attended a one-day seminar on arc flash. Here are two very surprising things I learned.
1. If there is a ?slightly loose? item within a panel (and how can you tell if there is before you take off the cover?), then the very act of taking off the cover could be enough to knock it completely loose, and start an arc flash incident. So no, it is not safe to simply remove the cover.
2. In the event an employee is injured in an arc flash incident, if there is evidence that the company was negligent in providing protective measures, the company?s insurance might not be the only target of a lawsuit. The injured person (or the family) can sue the person?s supervisor (i.e., go after the boss? personal assets).

Tell that to your boss, and see what response you get.

You did the right thing, Patricia. Stand your ground.

so true. I had a fused disconnect switch blow up in my face from simply placing my hand on the door. Someone tapped the line side conductors with split bolts, one wasnt taped well and a tiny point of metal was touching the side of the can. When i pushed on the door, it pushed on the tapped conductor, the split bolt scratched the paint enough for BOOM. Thankfully it blew out the side of the can and i was not injured. Left a 2" hole in the side of the switch, a 2 or 3 foot long burn mark on the wall and adjacent metal conduits had copper sprayed on them.

You never know whats behind a panel cover....

 

[charlie b]

Perhaps a long chat with your boss is in order. It's likely that most 208V panel boards will not have an arc flash potential, but without the proper study and documentation there is no sure way to know.

Says who? I would have to argue with that statement.

Argue with which statement? That a long chat is in order? That 208 volt panels don't have arc flash potential? That a study is needed? :-? I agree with the first and third, and I have already posted a disagreement with the second.

 

[Chev]

As an Electrical Safe Work Practices (ESWP) Trainer I'd say you all need Electrical Safe Work Practices training immediatly.
For that task you would be required to have appropriate FR clothing, voltage rated gloves with leather protectors, and be wearing a hard hat with a face shield....or you could do it the simple way.
Shut it off, verify that it is deenergized, lock it out, verify that it is deenergized, (live-dead-live test for your meter) then look to your hearts content without the PPE!
All electrical equipment that is likely to require examination, adjusting, servicing, or maintenance while energized "shall be field marked to warn QUALIFIED PERSONS of potential arc flash hazards". One must be qualified to open a panel door, let alone remove a cover, and unless you have been properly trained you are not qualified!
We train our electricians, ALL Supervisors, and EE's in ESWP, or anyone who may supervise an electrical project so they know what's required of us and them to be responsible for OUR safety.

Any voltage over 50 VAC or 50 VDC requires the wearing of appropriate PPE!

Applicable articles are NFPA 70E Article 400.11 and NEC Article 110.16,
OSHA Regulations, Title 29 CFR 1910 subpart I details the PPE

At GM an Energized Electrical Work Permit would be required, along with a Written Job Permit. The Energized permit must be approved by the Plant Manager, the Safety Supervisor, the Maintenance/Engineering Manager, and the Electrical Subject Matter Expert.
Does anyone want to believe all of those people would put their position on the line for a task that could be scheduled for when power could be shut off? I'm the hourly SME and I won't sign one! The pay isn't good enough, and lawyers are too expensive!

 

[zog]

Argue with which statement? That a long chat is in order? That 208 volt panels don't have arc flash potential? That a study is needed? :-? I agree with the first and third, and I have already posted a disagreement with the second.

That a 208V panel likely does not have an arc flash hazard. Now it may not be required, based on transformer size, to have an analysis done, but in that case you refer to the tables and still need to take the proper precautions.

Sorry, should have been clearer on what I meant there.

 

[raider1]

If the purpose of removing the covers is for visual inspection only (Which I suspect is the case here) an EEWP is not required, 70E lists this specifically.

But proper PPE and training are still required to be provided by the employer and used by the worker.

Agreed, that is why I was asking what the reason was for removing the cover and also my statement that a EEWP MAY be required.

Chris

 

[Chev]

Our requirements are for wearing a 40 cal/cm? suit, (aka "moon suit") are for work related to our power distribution "sub stations". The rest of the time we are allowed to wear our Category II FR rated clothing for lower amperage (max of 400 amps) 480 volts or less, using the class 00 gloves with leather protectors. GM contracts out the high voltage work.
We are not allowed to install a swing plug or open a swing plug cover with the bus energized.

Was just kidding before about all needing ESWP training...didn't mean to insult anyone.:grin: But it is a requirement under OSHA, GM fought for years in court against implementation, they finally gave up and now we have it!