Feeder or Branch Circuit

[Electron_Sam78]

Here's the deal, I have electrical pedestals for an RV park. Each has a feed through terminal block for the supply conductors. Each pedestal contains three circuit breakers protecting three respective receptacle outlets. The pedestals themselves are UL listed as power outlets not a circuit breaker enclosure or a panelboard enclosure. With this information are the supply conductors to the pedestal considered a feeder or a branch circuit according to the NEC?

I considered the supply conductors a feeder until I read the UL listing as a power outlet. Now I'm confused. If the entire structure is a power outlet then would the OCPDs internal to said power outlet count as final OCPDs to define the supply as a branch circuit?

 

[raider1]

I would say that the supply conductors are feeders and not branch circuits.

The breakers in the RV pedestals would be the branch circuit overcurrent protective devices.

Chris

 

[jumper]

Is there a OCPD before the pedestal?

 

[hurk27]

being a feeder would depend upon whether or not there is OCPD ahead of the circuit, if these conductors are protected, then they are feeders, if not then they are service conductors, but I have only seen that once, most parks have a MDP with breakers ahead of the feeders to the pedestals.

 

[Electron_Sam78]

Is there a OCPD before the pedestal?

Yes the pedestal circuits are fed from an OCPD at an electrical distribution panel

 

[mcclary's electrical]

Is there a OCPD before the pedestal?

Would it matter? They use the term "final OCPD"

 

[Electron_Sam78]

being a feeder would depend upon whether or not there is OCPD ahead of the circuit, if these conductors are protected, then they are feeders, if not then they are service conductors, but I have only seen that once, most parks have a MDP with breakers ahead of the feeders to the pedestals.

Yes we have the MDP feeding the park pedestal circuits

 

[Electron_Sam78]

Would it matter? They use the term "final OCPD"

That's the question. Are the listed power outlet's internal OCPDs the final OCPDs or does the whole thing just count as an outlet being hooked up. The answer to that would determine whether a feeder or branch circuit...I hate the color gray

 

[jumper]

Would it matter? They use the term "final OCPD"

I think so.

Service Xfrmr to first OCPD = service conductors

OCPD to OCPD= feeder

OCPD to device= branch circuit

No?:-?

 

[Electron_Sam78]

I think so.

Service Xfrmr to first OCPD = service conductors

OCPD to OCPD= feeder

OCPD to device= branch circuit

No?:-?

True. I should have specified that part of the situation in the OP. Now that that's cleared up what do you think about the posed question?

 

[jumper]

True. I should have specified that part of the situation in the OP. Now that that's cleared up what do you think about the posed question?

I think the Headbanger's (Raider1) answer in post 2 is correct. It is a feeder.

 

[LarryFine]

Yes the pedestal circuits are fed from an OCPD at an electrical distribution panel

Then, that's your service disconnect (unless there's another switch ahead of that one), and thus, as the concensus appears to be, they are indeed feeders.

 

[hurk27]

With this information are the supply conductors to the pedestal considered a feeder or a branch circuit according to the NEC?

True. I should have specified that part of the situation in the OP. Now that that's cleared up what do you think about the posed question?

100 definitions:
Feeder. All circuit conductors between the service equipment, the source of a separately derived system, or other power supply source and the final branch-circuit overcurrent device.

Looks clear to me, your question was answered long ago

 

[Electron_Sam78]

Then, that's your service disconnect (unless there's another switch ahead of that one), and thus, as the concensus appears to be, they are indeed feeders.

Yes there is another one ahead of that, the service disconnect in the form of a MDP main breaker.

 

[Electron_Sam78]

I think we've kind of gotten off topic. My point was if the whole pedestal is UL listed as a power outlet wouldn't it be kind of like wiring in a
receptacle that had it's own little circuit breaker (think about a GFCI receptacle)? The UL listing is what got me thinking along these lines.

 

[hurk27]

I think we've kind of gotten off topic. My point was if the whole pedestal is UL listed as a power outlet wouldn't it be kind of like wiring in a
receptacle that had it's own little circuit breaker (think about a GFCI receptacle)? The UL listing is what got me thinking along these lines.

really wouldn't matter because the NEC definition is based because of the breakers in that power outlet, no different that a mobile home pedestal that has breakers in it to feed the mobile home, and AC equipment, the conductors feeding this pedestal are by NEC definition feeders. and because the conductors going into the home also have a breaker panel in the home they are feeders also, the same as the cord that is going into a camper, even though it is a cord its still a feeder as the camper has a breaker panel in it. the feeder ends when you reach the breakers for the branch circuits, but doesent mean another feeder can't begin.

 

[suemarkp]

I'm curious why it matters feeder -vs- branch circuit? In some application it can matter. Take a hot tub. If you provide a circuit with an outlet for a hot tub, does that circuit change between feeder and branch depending on whether the hot tub you buy has internal circuit breakers? How about if you have a 50A circuit with a 50A GFCI breaker disconnect box downstream (its job is to provide GFCI and disconnect capability, not overcurrent) -- is the 50A run from the panel to disconnect a branch circuit or feeder?

In the case of pool circuits, this distinction can matter because of insulated grounding wire requirements for feeders -vs- branch circuits. Is there a similar issue with RV pedestals?

 

[Electron_Sam78]

I'm curious why it matters feeder -vs- branch circuit? In some application it can matter. Take a hot tub. If you provide a circuit with an outlet for a hot tub, does that circuit change between feeder and branch depending on whether the hot tub you buy has internal circuit breakers? How about if you have a 50A circuit with a 50A GFCI breaker disconnect box downstream (its job is to provide GFCI and disconnect capability, not overcurrent) -- is the 50A run from the panel to disconnect a branch circuit or feeder?

In the case of pool circuits, this distinction can matter because of insulated grounding wire requirements for feeders -vs- branch circuits. Is there a similar issue with RV pedestals?

In my case I'm deciding if I need to argue for ground rods at each pedestal under 250.32(A)

 

[Electron_Sam78]

really wouldn't matter because the NEC definition is based because of the breakers in that power outlet, no different that a mobile home pedestal that has breakers in it to feed the mobile home, and AC equipment, the conductors feeding this pedestal are by NEC definition feeders. and because the conductors going into the home also have a breaker panel in the home they are feeders also, the same as the cord that is going into a camper, even though it is a cord its still a feeder as the camper has a breaker panel in it. the feeder ends when you reach the breakers for the branch circuits, but doesent mean another feeder can't begin.

Talking about RVs or campers, technically you're right but I think the hardwired electrical system ends, as far as the NEC is concerned, at the receptacle outlets in the pedestal. The RV itself is considered it's own independent system and covered in another article.

 

[raider1]

In my case I'm deciding if I need to argue for ground rods at each pedestal under 250.32(A)

I would say Yes, each pedestal would be a separate structure supplied by a feeder and a grounding electrode system would be required in accordance with 250.32(A).

Chris