Ground Dead End

[M4gery]

This is certainly open to interpretation,but again under the exemption, I don't need to comply with 300.14 IMO there is no termination the the EGC,therefore it falls under the exemption

It's been stated that the EGC WOULD be considered terminated in the box, do you disagree with that?

I guarantee you it's not broke,,,,,,,,,,,,

Why are there so many commas then?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

This is certainly open to interpretation,but again under the exemption, I don't need to comply with 300.14 IMO there is no termination the the EGC,therefore it falls under the exemption

The problem with this logic is it muddies the waters for the intent of 334.108. I think it makes sense with what Bob said-- the exception is for wires looped thru the box-- in this case 6" is not necessary.

I was thinking the same as you were but logically it didn't make sense. I think leaving a 2" tail is, if not code compliant, a bad install. Why not just leave it 6" it doesn't take any more work.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

It's been stated that the EGC WOULD be considered terminated in the box, do you disagree with that?



Yes, I disagree with that terminology for a wire that is not terminated

 

[jxofaltrds]

Please show me where it says that splices cannot be included in the measurement

This is certainly open to interpretation,but again under the exemption, I don't need to comply with 300.14 IMO there is no termination the the EGC,therefore it falls under the exemption


I guarantee you it's not broke,,,,,,,,,,,,



Thanks

As to where splices can not be included.

"**** measured from the point in the box where it emerges from its raceway or CABLE SHEATH ******"

Now if you or some else damaged the wire would I make you repull it? NO.

If every box had the conductors short then yes.

 

[ActionDave]

Found this (click here for full article)

Stumped by the Code?
Sep 9, 2009 11:59 AM, By Mike Holt, NEC Consultant

Q. We cut our wire too short in a few outlet boxes so I spliced on a couple inches of conductor so that I had the required 6 in. of free conductor at each location. The inspector says the free conductor must be "unspliced." Is he right?

A. No. He is correct that the NEC requires at least 6 in. of free conductor be available from the point in the box where the conductors enter the enclosure [300.14]. However, nowhere in this rule does it require that the free length of conductor be unspliced.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

As to where splices can not be included.

"**** measured from the point in the box where it emerges from its raceway or CABLE SHEATH ******"

Now if you or some else damaged the wire would I make you repull it? NO.

If every box had the conductors short then yes.

Yes, measured from the sheath(i'll agree with that),,,, but,,,,to what? the end of the wire? or the length of the wire (including) a wirenut and pig tail?


I think it means the latter

 

[jxofaltrds]

Found this (click here for full article)

Stumped by the Code?
Sep 9, 2009 11:59 AM, By Mike Holt, NEC Consultant

Q. We cut our wire too short in a few outlet boxes so I spliced on a couple inches of conductor so that I had the required 6 in. of free conductor at each location. The inspector says the free conductor must be "unspliced." Is he right?

A. No. He is correct that the NEC requires at least 6 in. of free conductor be available from the point in the box where the conductors enter the enclosure [300.14]. However, nowhere in this rule does it require that the free length of conductor be unspliced.

I agree with the inspector. Once the wire is cut that is its length. Adding pigtail and wire is adding. It is only 'free' to the point it is attached or connected to something.

Now should an inspector make you remove drywall and replace that wire? No.

In Ohio we are required to use a reasonable interpretation of the code. Wires are damaged all the time by drywallers. It is reasonable to allow a repair (extention) of the wire to meet the 'intent' of the code.

 

[billsnuff]

i think the EGC has terminated (ended) in the box............since it goes no further, whether attached to a terminal, or not.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

i think the EGC has terminated (ended) in the box............since it goes no further, whether attached to a terminal, or not.

So let me get this straight.

Imagine you had a contract to make "all terminations" in a control panel.
You think simply "getting" the conductors into the panel is fulfilling the contract?:-?

 

[M4gery]

So let me get this straight.

Imagine you had a contract to make "all terminations" in a control panel.
You think simply "getting" the conductors into the panel is fulfilling the contract?:-?

The intent of "terminations" in a control panel is to land the wires where they belong.

In a plastic box in which a keyless is installed, the ground wire is terminated where it belongs, in the back of the box.

Further, code language doesn't always match contract language.

 

[brian john]

Further, code language doesn't always match contract language.

You should put that on a T-shirt and sell them

 

[mcclary's electrical]

The intent of "terminations" in a control panel is to land the wires where they belong.

In a plastic box in which a keyless is installed, the ground wire is terminated where it belongs, in the back of the box.

Further, code language doesn't always match contract language.

I don't buy it. You 're saying "terminated" means one thing in one box but a different thing in another box.? The ground is not terminated, nor spliced, so falls under the exception

 

[M4gery]

I don't buy it. You 're saying "terminated" means one thing in one box but a different thing in another box.?

No, I think it means the same thing in all boxes.

When you terminate a wire inside a panel, you put it under a lug, or under a breaker, or where ever it belongs. When you terminate a wire in an outlet box you put it under the device screw or inside of the wirenut. When you terminate a ground wire in a plastic box with a keyless, you put it in the back of the box coiled up.

"Terminate" has always meant multiple things, it depends on the context.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I don't buy it. You 're saying "terminated" means one thing in one box but a different thing in another box.? The ground is not terminated, nor spliced, so falls under the exception

Well I bought it and I think they are right. Why would the NEC want an egc in everybox and then allow you to cut it - let say- 1/2". By your thinking that would be okay-- I don't buy that. I believe the intent is as Bob stated but I wish the nec just said in the exception- excluding wires passing thru the box or something like that.

Why not leave it 6" long and avoid the BS? The wire is there so leave it be regardless of what you think the code states. If someone adds to this circuit then the other question arises as to whether it can be spliced.

I really doubt the NEC intended for us to be allowed to cut our wires 2" long and splice on to it whether it be an egc or otherwise.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

No, I think it means the same thing in all boxes.

When you terminate a wire inside a panel, you put it under a lug, or under a breaker, or where ever it belongs. When you terminate a wire in an outlet box you put it under the device screw or inside of the wirenut. When you terminate a ground wire in a plastic box with a keyless, you put it in the back of the box coiled up.

"Terminate" has always meant multiple things, it depends on the context.

Pure semantics to call a wire that is not terminated to anything as such

 

[M4gery]

I really doubt the NEC intended for us to be allowed to cut our wires 2" long and splice on to it whether it be an egc or otherwise.

Agreed. And even if the NEC did intent for this to be done, I see it as horrible workmanship. If this was purposely done on every box, this is one instance in which I would be happy to hear the inspector flag the job on a 110.12 violation.

 

[M4gery]

Pure semantics to call a wire that is not terminated to anything as such

It's not semantics. I am calling the wire terminated because I agree with the others who say in this instance it IS terminated. Everything has to end somewhere.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

Well I bought it and I think they are right. Why would the NEC want an egc in everybox and then allow you to cut it - let say- 1/2". By your thinking that would be okay-- I don't buy that. I believe the intent is as Bob stated but I wish the nec just said in the exception- excluding wires passing thru the box or something like that.

Why not leave it 6" long and avoid the BS? The wire is there so leave it be regardless of what you think the code states. If someone adds to this circuit then the other question arises as to whether it can be spliced.

I really doubt the NEC intended for us to be allowed to cut our wires 2" long and splice on to it whether it be an egc or otherwise.

It's not BS, it a measure I take to guarantee the wire never hits the terminals.

I changed my SOP for hanging keyless's after I've seen about ten short out by a long ground hanging around. None of the one's I found shorts in were my work. They were all hung 20 years or so earlier. I decided I would install mine this way to avoid that problem. Some here think it's illegal. I don't.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

Agreed. And even if the NEC did intent for this to be done, I see it as horrible workmanship. If this was purposely done on every box, this is one instance in which I would be happy to hear the inspector flag the job on a 110.12 violation.

It takes .5 seconds to add a wirenut if you need a ground later


Big pain, that could break the bank

 

[M4gery]

It's not BS, it a measure I take to guarantee the wire never hits the terminals.

I changed my SOP for hanging keyless's after I've seen about ten short out by a long ground hanging around. None of the one's I found shorts in were my work. They were all hung 20 years or so earlier. I decided I would install mine this way to avoid that problem. Some here think it's illegal. I don't.

Something was done severely wrong in those boxes.

If you coil the ground in the back of the box first, then put the other wires in on top, it would take quite a bit of work to move and twist the ground into position to be able to touch the terminal on the keyless.