Man it's getting bad

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Profish00

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I just bid a 3000 sq foot office lease shell, 16 - 2x4 3- 2x4 emergency fixtures 28 down lights and 3 exit lights 7 oc sensors 3 ceiling sensors 54 plugs...ect

My fixture package (and I have 4 prices) was $6500.00
The general got 3 bids, mine $20,356.00, $17,100.00 and $11,781.00:-?
 
I bid a retail space in a strip mall last year.

My bid was $32k. Lighting package was half of it.

Winning bid was $5,700. :mad:
 
Yep, had one recently that had four bidders, three of which were spread out between $269,000 to $284,000, we were in the middle, the winner was at $174,000, go figure.

Just have to throw your hands up and realize that if you can survive untill these lowballers fall out, things may some day get better and get back to normal.


Roger
 
Especially when things are slow, you have to ask yourself, "Why did the other guy get the job?" Saying 'he was cheaper' is too easy, a cop-out.

Several years ago, I lost an office remodel where lighting fixtures were specified. The winner used "off the shelf" fixtures - and got away with it!

Another similar job, and I 'lost' because I knew the challenges posed by the building. The winner ended up regretting the job.

Just over a year ago, I lost out on a hair salon job; the winner didn't do a hair salon, he just did a simple partitioning of the retail space. His one circuit and four receptacles as compared to my 12 circuits and 20 receptacles, three fans, and task lighting. Small wonder his price was half of mine.

A happy experience was the time I broke a cement-board soffit panel. I didn't think about it; I just replaced it, and painted it to match. The customer then told me of other times other guys had goofed - and had passed the buck, or done a half-baked patch job. That customer was so focused on 'the bottom line' that he never realized what you got when you hired a 'full service' contractor .... and I learned that there are plenty out there less conscientious than I. (Of course, a 'real pro' would not have broken the panel in the first place!

My point is: it's up to YOU to find out why the other guy is cheaper - and to make sure the customer knows why you're really a better deal.
 
Yes it's tough out there.

but I am curious as to several of you tell of fixure packages being more that the winning bid or the EC did not follow the spec.

How is it that we must submit a bid per the plans and specs and these other guys are not.

It sounds like some value engineering going on. or Are these other EC just giving a lowball bid and state " EC choice of fixtures and equpment" ?
 
roger said:
Yep, had one recently that had four bidders, three of which were spread out between $269,000 to $284,000, we were in the middle, the winner was at $174,000, go figure.

Just have to throw your hands up and realize that if you can survive untill these lowballers fall out, things may some day get better and get back to normal.


Roger
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Probably a guy that doesn't believe in (or understands) marking up materials :)
 
cdslotz said:
Probably a guy that doesn't believe in (or understands) marking up materials :)
Click to expand...

It was definatly someone that was out of their league and expertise.

The funny thing is, they were given the normal time to review their number and back out but they chose not too.

The end result will be that the owner and designers will fight them all the way through the project to get the product they want, an EC that should have the project missed out, and the EC that won will probably walk or go under.

I don't know if a bond was required but I doubt anybody would give them one.

Roger
 
One contractor we work for has me down to a set price which most of the jobs are pretty much the same , if something major added then there is a change order of course.

I don't mind the set price because we do show a small profit but it gets me in the door with the home owners for other types of electrical work , then that leads me to there neighbors an also friends.

So in the end set price works out well for me with this one contractor.
 
Sierrasparky said:
Yes it's tough out there.

but I am curious as to several of you tell of fixure packages being more that the winning bid or the EC did not follow the spec.

How is it that we must submit a bid per the plans and specs and these other guys are not.

It sounds like some value engineering going on. or Are these other EC just giving a lowball bid and state " EC choice of fixtures and equpment" ?
Click to expand...

A lot of times we do not bid to the spec. Many times the specs and plans we get are so poorly written that if we bid to the spec the end result would never work or cost so much the project would never be funded.

Some customers won't accept such a bid, but most prefer that we tell them what we think and submit a rational bid regardless of what the spec and plans say.

keep in mind that many contractors are living off change orders and that is their only profit center.
 
I guess I have been doing it all wrong. I don't see how you can give a bid not as per the spec. Why are you value engineering it for someone else. I see you doing it if you have a in with the EC. Or you have the job.
I can see you bid the following:

As per plan 45k

If i do the job my way as I feel your spec is out of line............ 35k
 
Sierrasparky said:
I guess I have been doing it all wrong. I don't see how you can give a bid not as per the spec. Why are you value engineering it for someone else. I see you doing it if you have a in with the EC. Or you have the job.
I can see you bid the following:

As per plan 45k

If i do the job my way as I feel your spec is out of line............ 35k
Click to expand...

You can bid anyway you want. Some people won't accept a bid that does not meet the spec, others are more rational about such things.
 
Have you ever entered a bid on the material you believe would work and not what is being asked for and just qualify what you are bidding? Takes a little longer to write the qualifier but many times you can grab the project and actually pull a bigger margin then you ever could bidding what the specs say. A good lawyer can help you with the initial quallifier letter then from then on just cut and paste to suit the project.

Today this is being done from the small contractor to the very big boys, if done right you get the project. Then again if done wrong you'll loose your shirt.
 
roger said:
an EC that should have the project missed out, and the EC that won will probably Walk or go under.
Click to expand...


That happens a lot more than anyone likes to think about. There are many jobs where the winner of the bid is not able to complete the project.
 
dbuckley said:
Is there any evidence of this happening? Anyone lost to a stupid bid and got to see the contractor fall over?
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As a matter of fact I have seen it and we finished the project through the bonding company.

Roger
 
With the time off, I?ve been able to make nice with one of the head project managers at an established GC. We go out for lunches and I have spent some time in the GC's estimating dept.

Here?s what I saw the morning of the bid opening for a million (1.5 mill about) dollar job.

All of the sub-contractors were faxing in their quotes for the job, some had faxed in numbers the day before, to the GC?s estimating dept.

The project manager (PM) was looking over the bids, prices for mechanical work (plumbing, electric, HVAC); low prices were just over 100,000, prices from established mechanical outfits were right at or above 200,000.


The established mechanical contractors were the high price. Most had a boiler plate of exclusions attached to the bid with wording that stated if you don?t put OUR exclusions in the contract then this price is void. Also had a lot of language about payment & billing & scheduling of work.


Most of the low prices had no exclusions.


The PM penciled in a LESS than average price for all the mechanical trades and laughing said ?let?s see if we can get it done for this dollar amount?. The PM said that established contractors that have estimating departments and were good for getting prices on work; smaller contractors had lower prices but were unreliable for prices and work. The PM also stated that he liked smaller contractors because most of the time they would come to his terms. Established contractors were a ?pain in the neck???.

Now it?s about 9am the man who owns the GC sticks his head in the door, the PM starts to complain how he hasn?t been able to vacation due to the economy. The owner of the GC said to the PM ?you have the SOANDSO job coming up, if you can beat your subs up and get the job done for less, with NO EXTRA?S, take the saved money and go on a cruise (~9000.00).


The PM grabbed the SOANDSO job folder and called all the subs (on speaker phone). In a nutshell the PM would say that the sub was too high, come down in price, I?ve got more work for you. Most of the subs caved.


What I saw is that the lowest bidders caved no problem; the established businesses would not budge much on price. This is interesting because the guy with the lowest price would lower it more, but the guys with the higher prices would not drop the price much?.

PM also made the point of saying that if he was forced to use one of the established sub contractors(high price), that he would try to make the other trades(low price already) cave and come down in their price more to make up the difference for the established sub contractors high price.
 
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