Putting different manufacturer breaker in other OEM equipment

Status
Not open for further replies.

PhaseShift

Senior Member
Is there an issue with putting one manufacturers breaker in another manufacturers enclosure such as an MCC?

For instance if I have a 480V Siemens MCC is there any issue/violation with installing a 480V Allen Bradley or Cuttler Hammer breaker in on of the spare buckets in the MCC?
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Yes. It is a violation of 110.3(B). The equipment manufacturer will have a label indicating the ONLY types of breakers tested and listed for use with the equipment. The only exception are Classified Breakers which have their own set of rules.

There is no such thing as an interchangable breaker - even if it "fits" the equipment.
 
Classified circuit breakers are a very limited number of breakers.

See:
(DIXF) of the UL White Book.

"This category covers Classified molded-case circuit breaker rated 15 to 50 A, 120/240 V maximum that have been investigated and found suitable for use in place of other Listed circuit breakers in specific Listed panelboards, with ratings not exeeeding 225A, 120/240 V ac and shortcircuit current of 10 kA."
 
Is there an issue with putting one manufacturers breaker in another manufacturers enclosure such as an MCC?

For instance if I have a 480V Siemens MCC is there any issue/violation with installing a 480V Allen Bradley or Cuttler Hammer breaker in on of the spare buckets in the MCC?


Notice the voltage rating of your breaker - breaker enclosure, and the wording I posted prior.
 

PhaseShift

Senior Member
Yes. It is a violation of 110.3(B). The equipment manufacturer will have a label indicating the ONLY types of breakers tested and listed for use with the equipment. The only exception are Classified Breakers which have their own set of rules.

There is no such thing as an interchangable breaker - even if it "fits" the equipment.

Where is this information typically shown?

I just dont see why installing a breaker of a different type that is simply sitting in a bucket would be a violation.
 

PhaseShift

Senior Member
As already stated, it is not UL/NRTL listed. If something were to happen, you would be held liable.

So you are saying that the MCC is only UL listed for certain breaker types?

Could a individual breaker be UL listed for use in several types of MCC's?
 

dhalleron

Senior Member
Location
Louisville, KY
I didn't really learn until several years ago that it was wrong, but... Square D Homeline Breakers are notched so that they fit Homeline panels and other panels, but the breakers from other panel would not fit a Homeline panel. We used to stock the Homeline breakers and put them in any panel they would fit.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
So you are saying that the MCC is only UL listed for certain breaker types?

Could a individual breaker be UL listed for use in several types of MCC's?
Breakers perform slightly different from manufacturer to manufacturer.
For example: When breaking current, especially from faults, gasses are produced. When UL tests the breakers in the MCC bucket they make sure that the vented gasses do not cause a problem. Now say Manufacturer A vents its gasses towards the load side lugs, while manufacturer B vents through the back of the breaker. Swapping these two manufacturers may mean the vented gasses go where they aren't supposed to be causing major arcing problems and possible explosion. This is one reason you cannot simply exchange a higher interrupting breaker for a lower one even if it is from the same manufacturer.

And yes it is possible to have a breaker listed in several different MCC's.
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
Well said Jim, there are some breakers that are designed and tested to be used in different applications, but usually not on small stuff liek MCC's. The design and testing costs are just not worth it when you can use the right breaker. But just because it "fits" does not mean you can use it.

When you get into larger installations there are usually more options, VCB retrofills for older MV switchgear is a common example.
 

jumper

Senior Member
Breakers perform slightly different from manufacturer to manufacturer.
For example: When breaking current, especially from faults, gasses are produced. When UL tests the breakers in the MCC bucket they make sure that the vented gasses do not cause a problem. Now say Manufacturer A vents its gasses towards the load side lugs, while manufacturer B vents through the back of the breaker. Swapping these two manufacturers may mean the vented gasses go where they aren't supposed to be causing major arcing problems and possible explosion. This is one reason you cannot simply exchange a higher interrupting breaker for a lower one even if it is from the same manufacturer.

And yes it is possible to have a breaker listed in several different MCC's.

Well said Jim, there are some breakers that are designed and tested to be used in different applications, but usually not on small stuff liek MCC's. The design and testing costs are just not worth it when you can use the right breaker. But just because it "fits" does not mean you can use it.

When you get into larger installations there are usually more options, VCB retrofills for older MV switchgear is a common example.

Geez, now you two finally show up, quick slacking off and going to work.:)
 

PhaseShift

Senior Member
Breakers perform slightly different from manufacturer to manufacturer.
For example: When breaking current, especially from faults, gasses are produced. When UL tests the breakers in the MCC bucket they make sure that the vented gasses do not cause a problem. Now say Manufacturer A vents its gasses towards the load side lugs, while manufacturer B vents through the back of the breaker. Swapping these two manufacturers may mean the vented gasses go where they aren't supposed to be causing major arcing problems and possible explosion. This is one reason you cannot simply exchange a higher interrupting breaker for a lower one even if it is from the same manufacturer.

And yes it is possible to have a breaker listed in several different MCC's.

This leaves me with a few more questions.

Where on the MCC or panelboard do I find what the UL approved breakers are for that panel?

If I have breaker X in my hand how can I determine what panel(s) it is UL listed/rated for?

If I have a control box that was field fabricated housing breakers and starters does it not then matter what type of breaker is installed in this box since this box or enclosure would not be UL listed?
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Where on the MCC or panelboard do I find what the UL approved breakers are for that panel?
The label of the breaker panel usually lists which breakers are rated for that panel. For MCC's you need to go to the manufacturer. Control panel manufacturers often have several different manufacturers on their UL listing, but they rarely tell you which ones they are until you ask.

If I have breaker X in my hand how can I determine what panel(s) it is UL listed/rated for?
You can't.

The listing is for the panel with the breaker, not the breaker with the panel. Any one breaker might be able to be used in literally hundreds of different pieces of equipment.

If I have a control box that was field fabricated housing breakers and starters does it not then matter what type of breaker is installed in this box since this box or enclosure would not be UL listed?
It still might. Some breakers and devices must be used in 'listed' combinations. For example, a Square D magnetic only breaker (Mag-Gard) is not listed for use with an Eaton starter, so this would be violating 110.3.
 

BJ Conner

Senior Member
Location
97006
Is there an issue with putting one manufacturers breaker in another manufacturers enclosure such as an MCC?

For instance if I have a 480V Siemens MCC is there any issue/violation with installing a 480V Allen Bradley or Cuttler Hammer breaker in on of the spare buckets in the MCC?

You might get away with it if you take it to a Siemens shop and have them do it. I doubt if they would but it is possible. It would be cheaper to buy a new bucket from Siemens.
There are good Cuttler Hammer and Square D service shops around here but I don't think they would.

The problem with Seimens is getting someone to answer the phone. You call them around here and you get routed to a place in Denver or somewhere and you go through a 10 step phone menu where you finally get to leave a message. They promise to call back in a day and sometimes do. I don't call them unless I am really desperate.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
MCCs are UL listed under UL845.

UL845 requires very specific testing of each and every possible combination of devices. Technically you cannot even use a different Siemens breaker in a Siemens MCC bucket if it is not the exact same Siemens breaker that came out of it. The UL label on that bucket is for the exact components that were in it at the time it was tested and listed under the manufacturer's UL845 program. There is some leeway allowed for when a specific part is discontinued and there is an official replacement, because usually the mfr. will submit documents to UL stating they have evaluated the conditions for its use and it will perform at or better than the level of the original. But UL charges them for making that determination.

Can some breakers be used in other brands of MCC? Maybe. Going back 20 years or so, there were more MCC manufacturers than there were circuit breaker manufacturers. So people who did not make circuit breakers, such as Allen Bradley, Cutler Hammer and Furnas, were forced to buy breakers from competitors, usually ITE and Westinghouse (nobody else ever used Square D breakers). But over time that changed: Cutler Hammer bought Westinghouse, Siemens bought ITE, then they bought Furnas. Ironically when I worked for Furnas years ago, they changed from using Siemens to using Westinghouse, and made Westinghouse pay mega bucks to re-do all of the UL listings on the Furnas MCCs, at the time about $8K per line item. Then 2 years later Siemens bought Furnas and switched everything back, hardly cost them anything because basically nothing had changed from the original designs. Allen Bradley flip flopped between ITE and Westinghouse, especially after Siemens bought ITE. Although A-B now sells circuit breakers they do not make them, they are the Cutler Hammer G line breakers brand-labeled. But does that mean you can swap out an A-B breaker for a C-H version of the exact same thing? Maybe, maybe not; it all depends on whether or not A-B paid the extra money to UL so that the "also listed" label could be applied. And what do you think are the chances that A-B would have paid that extra money? About zero...

So bottom line, you cannot put ANY power device into an MCC bucket (or switchboard or panel board) that was not originally listed to be in there unless the manufacturer tells you that it is permissible under their UL file, and none of them are going to do that in a way that gives their competitors a chance at taking the replacement parts business away from them. MCCs and most other assembled gear is a loss-leader for mfrs, they do it specifically so that they CAN get the replacement parts business later. They are not going to make it easy for a competitor to grab the frosting off of the cupcake.
 

PhaseShift

Senior Member
Great Information

MCCs are UL listed under UL845.

UL845 requires very specific testing of each and every possible combination of devices. Technically you cannot even use a different Siemens breaker in a Siemens MCC bucket if it is not the exact same Siemens breaker that came out of it. The UL label on that bucket is for the exact components that were in it at the time it was tested and listed under the manufacturer's UL845 program. There is some leeway allowed for when a specific part is discontinued and there is an official replacement, because usually the mfr. will submit documents to UL stating they have evaluated the conditions for its use and it will perform at or better than the level of the original. But UL charges them for making that determination.
.

What about if a particular breaker needs to be increased due to a load that was increased? Can you replace a breaker with a different ampere rating if it is the same type of breaker?



So bottom line, you cannot put ANY power device into an MCC bucket (or switchboard or panel board) that was not originally listed to be in there unless the manufacturer tells you that it is permissible under their UL file, and none of them are going to do that in a way that gives their competitors a chance at taking the replacement parts business away from them. MCCs and most other assembled gear is a loss-leader for mfrs, they do it specifically so that they CAN get the replacement parts business later. They are not going to make it easy for a competitor to grab the frosting off of the cupcake.

What if there is a spare bucket supplied with the MCC that has not components in it and you want to use the bucket to house a feeder breaker? Since there was no breaker origonally in there do you then have to still use a breaker that is listed for use in the MCC. Maybe a breaker that is used elsewhere in the MCC?

So even though these small molded case breaker are just sitting in the buckets and dont have a direct interface with the bus itself but rather just have leads brought to their line side then they still must adhere to the MCC listings?

Do you know where I can find a good source that has all of the information you posed related to the UL listings of UL485 to share with others who are investigating this issue with me?
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
What about if a particular breaker needs to be increased due to a load that was increased? Can you replace a breaker with a different ampere rating if it is the same type of breaker?
Only if the manufacturer shows it as an approved combination.

What if there is a spare bucket supplied with the MCC that has not components in it and you want to use the bucket to house a feeder breaker? Since there was no breaker origonally in there do you then have to still use a breaker that is listed for use in the MCC. Maybe a breaker that is used elsewhere in the MCC?
If this spare bucket has an external handle and a connection to the MCC bussing, you need to use the breaker that was intended to be put there.

So even though these small molded case breaker are just sitting in the buckets and dont have a direct interface with the bus itself but rather just have leads brought to their line side then they still must adhere to the MCC listings?
Now are you talking about components mounted in what are often called 'relay buckets' or 'empty mounting units'? In this case it would be the same as swapping components in any other Listed control panel.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top