Controlbox ?

[jimbo123]

We were given a control box assembled with iec type combination starters for 4 3 phase motors, 7.5 , 7.5 , 2 , 1.5 hp, pilot lites, a control transformer all wire up except for the field wiring . The box was has a 60a main [sq d fal ] cb. Each motor has its own gfp and ol protection . These are for the operation of one piece of machinery. The box came from the company that sold the machinery.
Does this type of electrical control box have to have a listing[ul] of some sort ?
The individual protection seems to be sized correctly. Is there something else we should look for ?

 

[kwired]

I'm not certain if the equipment manufacturer needs to have this listed, I see a lot of similar control boxes that come with equipment and I am sure many of them are not listed, and there are some that I know are.

You could build the same control panel yourself and as long as it meets NEC does not need listing by you.

As far as I'm concerned if there are NEC violations within it, then it needs third party listing before it should pass inspection. Problem may be that if there are violations in it you may need to correct them if it is not listed as is.

 

[StephenSDH]

95% of the panels we build we don't have listed.

 

[Jlarson]

If it's clean, well built, all the OL is right, and it's safe I would put it in without a second look.

 

[LEO2854]

We were given a control box assembled with iec type combination starters for 4 3 phase motors, 7.5 , 7.5 , 2 , 1.5 hp, pilot lites, a control transformer all wire up except for the field wiring . The box was has a 60a main [sq d fal ] cb. Each motor has its own gfp and ol protection . These are for the operation of one piece of machinery. The box came from the company that sold the machinery.
Does this type of electrical control box have to have a listing[ul] of some sort ?
The individual protection seems to be sized correctly. Is there something else we should look for ?

If you have a 2008 NEC HANDBOOK read all of 110.3 and the explanitery material.I hope that helps

 

[Jraef]

NRTL* listing of control panel assemblies is a requirement typically stipulated by local codes, not the NEC. So for example the California Electric Code basically adopts the NEC, and then adds their own additional requirements, one of which is NRTL listing. Depending on where you are working then, NRTL listing of a control panel may or may not be necessary. Some cities, such as Chicago, Los Angeles and New York, have their own requirements that may be different than their own States'.

* NRTL = Nationally Recognized Testing Lab, usually as defined in this OSHA website. http://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/

 

[sameguy]

If I put a lighting contactor in a box controled by a photo cell and time clock with H/A over ride will it need to be listed?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

It is my understanding that any electrical equipment used in a work place is required to be listed per the OHSA rules.

 

[sameguy]

Thanks Don, so custom equipment will allow making jimbo his controls and any of us ours; so long as we keep our test data, "it works and no fire, explosion, shock, etc. hazards.

 

[Jraef]

It is my understanding that any electrical equipment used in a work place is required to be listed per the OHSA rules.

Right, but as I see it the difference lies in whether or not you need another OVERALL label on an assembly as a "control panel" or whether just having UL components in the box is good enough. In some states, they add the rules about "assembly listing". Used to be that in California, Oregon and Washington where I have worked, the cutoff point was 5 devices or more, counting the box. Someone posted in here a while ago that this may have changed, there have been challenges.

The best thing to do is to ask the AHJ ahead of time what he/she will be looking for, because ultimately, they are the only one that matters. You can be right in one jurisdiction and wrong in another, the one that counts is the one where your equipment is being installed.

Or just get it labeled by a UL508 shop and not worry about it.

 

[jim dungar]

Or just get it labeled by a UL508 shop and not worry about it.

Only if the panel was assembled/built in their shop.
UL frowns on a UL508A shop putting labels on things they did not build.

 

[petersonra]

Only if the panel was assembled/built in their shop.
UL frowns on a UL508A shop putting labels on things they did not build.

Are you sure about that?

We have had this discussion with UL several times and the answer seems to be that a UL shop can actually inspect something built by a third party and put a UL508 label on it, if it meets all the criteria.

I am not real sure we would actually want to do it, but I think the answer is that it's acceptable to UL.

But, it's quite possible I might have misunderstood what was being said on this issue because I was not directly involved.

Think about it this way. It is very common for contract fab shops to apply a UL listing label for parts they make for someone else who actually got the listing, even if the fab shop does not list anything on their own.

 

[jim dungar]

Are you sure about that?

We have had this discussion with UL several times and the answer seems to be that a UL shop can actually inspect something built by a third party and put a UL508 label on it, if it meets all the criteria.

Interesting.
What do you have in writing?

My buddy with a UL 508A Panel shop can only label the panels built/assembled in his facility, and which are subject to a possible inspection by UL.

UL does have policies, about using third party assemblers, that vary slightly from one Listing to another.

 

[petersonra]

Interesting.
What do you have in writing?

My buddy with a UL 508A Panel shop can only label the panels built/assembled in his facility, and which are subject to a possible inspection by UL.

UL does have policies, about using third party assemblers, that vary slightly from one Listing to another.

I asked the guy who ought to know for sure and I got a rather equivocal answer. I am going to look a little deeper.

 

[petersonra]

Well I looked a little closer.

I am not sure it means what it actually says but it appears to say that the mark itself can only be applied at our facility, but the manufacturing does not have to take place here, or by us.

Take this conclusion with a grain of salt, or maybe a couple of grains.

 

[Jraef]

Only if the panel was assembled/built in their shop.
UL frowns on a UL508A shop putting labels on things they did not build.

I used to do it all the time, for a fee of course. I would take in equipment imported from Europe or Asia that had control panels on it without UL labels and inspect them, re-wire them if necessary, document them and label them. If there were any components inside that were not listed, I had to replace them with a listed versions and if anything was UR I had to add it to my procedure file (and pay for that). I usually had to re-work something because IEC rules on wire bending space seemed a little less stringent than UL and in a lot of cases the wire they used was not marked to show UL ratings, but in a few cases I didn't have to touch anything.

 

[jim dungar]

I used to do it all the time, for a fee of course. I would take in equipment imported from Europe or Asia that had control panels on it without UL labels and inspect them, re-wire them if necessary, document them and label them. If there were any components inside that were not listed, I had to replace them with a listed versions and if anything was UR I had to add it to my procedure file (and pay for that). I usually had to re-work something because IEC rules on wire bending space seemed a little less stringent than UL and in a lot of cases the wire they used was not marked to show UL ratings, but in a few cases I didn't have to touch anything.

But this modification and rework was all done in your facility, as I stated in my first response.

 

[Jraef]

But this modification and rework was all done in your facility, as I stated in my first response.

Ah, I see your point. I didn't make that clear in my post a while back. Should have said...

Or take it to a UL panel shop, have it listed and don't worry about it.

 

[mbeatty]

My understanding is that the UL listing/label must be applied by the final manufacturer of the 508A control box, if they are a UL shop, or it can be done by a UL field inspector.