404.2 2011

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360Youth

360Youth

Senior Member
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Newport, NC
Just curious what the take is on the requirement that a neutral be included at switch for possible future necessity, thus effectively doing away with switch loops in a large number of instances. (I am on lunch break so excuse the shortened version of what I want to ask) Does it seem like NEC is venturing into design or is it a necessary requirement?
 
Thom the reasoning is because of so many occupancy sensors , timers etc that historically have been using the egc as a conductor for the grounded part of their switch. I noticed that many of the digital timers are now being manufactured with a neutral wire.
 
360Youth said:
Yeah, I realize the intent but a flat out requirement seems a little much.
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Well, I think the NEC is more into design then we want to realize. To me this is a good change and I have no issue with it. In, fact I would install a neutral in all boxes unless it is fed with conduit just to make it simple.
 
One of the class members asked a good question, that being will a neutral be required at a deadend 3-way? Code is not specific about where it is required.
 
360Youth said:
One of the class members asked a good question, that being will a neutral be required at a deadend 3-way? Code is not specific about where it is required.
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SD Inspector said:
I have the same question also, Does this apply to all switches, including 3-ways and 4-way switches.

Dan
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I think it is very clear. It is required at all switches and I will go further to say that if their are 2 switches in a 2 gang fed from different circuits that a neutral for both switches is required.
 
Yes, I do agree that it seems pretty clear that neutral is required at every switch location. Poor wording on my part from previous post. Personally I think it is a game hanger. I do not do many switchloops so I almost always have have a neutral present. But it does change deadend 3-ways and box fill. I do not like this one because it changes 90% of wiring methods for 5% application.
 
You'll just have to get used to buying rolls of 4-conductor cable (12/4 and 14/4) for your switch wiring now. We have been using this for a few years now, and have been special ordering the 14/4 romex on an as-needed basis.

Maybe more suppliers will start keeping this stuff in stock now?
 
kbsparky said:
You'll just have to get used to buying rolls of 4-conductor cable (12/4 and 14/4) for your switch wiring now. We have been using this for a few years now, and have been special ordering the 14/4 romex on an as-needed basis.

Maybe more suppliers will start keeping this stuff in stock now?
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It is a rare situation where we don't have a neutral in the switch and I have never even seen 14/4 nm. I guess it may be worth having a roll of it around. Just need to convince the suppliers to stock it.
 
360Youth said:
Yeah, I realize the intent but a flat out requirement seems a little much.
Click to expand...
In California we have energy conservation codes, these code require switchs that use a neutral.There are many new devices like smart switches on the market that need neutrals, and you don't know that they won't be installing them right after you finish your work. The rest of the nation will be on similar requirements sooner or later, so you won't mind it then.

360Youth said:
One of the class members asked a good question, that being will a neutral be required at a deadend 3-way? Code is not specific about where it is required.
Click to expand...
When using a 3-way devise that requires a neutral, most of them only need one wire to communicate with the other device, so you can rewire the run to get a hot, a neutral and a "traveler"

Dennis Alwon said:
I think it is very clear. It is required at all switches and I will go further to say that if their are 2 switches in a 2 gang fed from different circuits that a neutral for both switches is required.
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Very important, I have seen other contractors fish a neutral from a receptacle in to a switch box on different circuits to opperate "smart switches" and I don't like this because it puts current on a neutral that shouldn't have current on it.

Dennis Alwon said:
It is a rare situation where we don't have a neutral in the switch and I have never even seen 14/4 nm. I guess it may be worth having a roll of it around. Just need to convince the suppliers to stock it.
Click to expand...
You gotta get some if you do much residential, it is great for fan light combos and multiple switch legs out of a tight spot. I always keep a roll in the van.
 
Thanks for the input, After reading the code again, and again, I figured the neutral is required at each switch location. Perhaps there could be a code proposal for the 2014 NEC. I do believe the neutral should be the same one for the circuit for the light circuit.
This will change wiring habits for a lot of electricians.

Dan
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 360Youth View Post
One of the class members asked a good question, that being will a neutral be required at a deadend 3-way?
Code is not specific about where it is required.
When using a 3-way devise that requires a neutral,
most of them only need one wire to communicate with the other device,
so you can rewire the run to get a hot, a neutral and a "traveler"

Arcwc,

Do I read you right?
(1) hot, (2) neutral, (3) "traveler".

How do you have a 3-way with a single 'traveler' ? :)
 
glene77is said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 360Youth View Post
One of the class members asked a good question, that being will a neutral be required at a deadend 3-way?
Code is not specific about where it is required.
When using a 3-way devise that requires a neutral,
most of them only need one wire to communicate with the other device,
so you can rewire the run to get a hot, a neutral and a "traveler"

Arcwc,

Do I read you right?
(1) hot, (2) neutral, (3) "traveler".

How do you have a 3-way with a single 'traveler' ? :)
Click to expand...

You turn it one on one end then go to the other end to make it work.
 
shepelec said:
Some of the electronic switches work as remotes. So they dont operate like a traditional 3 way. It more of a communications loop than a traveler.
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Exactly.

jxofaltrds said:
Then they are not 3 ways per se.
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And they don't need to be, the question was "why do you need a neutral in a switch box?" and a 3-way doesn't but when you change the 3-way to any kind of smart switch then it needs a neutral but doesn't need two travelers.:cool:
 
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