handle ties required?

[tommyrice]

300.3(B)(4)enclosures.where an aux. gutter runs between a panelboard and a pull box, and the pull box includes neutral terminations,neutral conductors of circuits supplied from the panelboard shall be permitted to originate in the pull box. in my exp. a super neutral would be on the same bar as the circuit neutrals. would we have to have handle ties on all the breakers in the column panel.i don't know if this would fall under the rules for circuits sharing a common neutral.

 

[480sparky]

300.3(B)(4) has nothing to do with handle ties.

 

[chris kennedy]

i don't know if this would fall under the rules for circuits sharing a common neutral.

Does your install fit the following definition?

Branch Circuit, Multiwire. A branch circuit that consists of two or more ungrounded conductors that have a voltage between them, and a grounded conductor that has equal voltage between it and each ungrounded conductor of the circuit and that is connected to the neutral or grounded conductor of the system.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

That is an unusual install and technically the one neutral would not meet the definition of a MWBC, IMO. I believe this install is illegal in the 2011 code.

200.4 Neutral Conductors. Neutral conductors shall not be used for more than one branch circuit, for more than one multiwire branch circuit, or for more than one set of ungrounded feeder conductors unless specifically permitted elsewhere in this Code.

 

[tommyrice]

300.3(B)(4)has nothing to do with handle ties

300.3(B)(4)has nothing to do with handle ties

the only reason i referenced 300.3b4 was to ask if this exemption from running neutral conductors with phase conductors in column was still allowed.the neutral circuit conductors originate in pull box from bar with oversized neutral.could individual circuit breakers in column panelboard still be used without handle ties?if you think under these conditions,this is a legit install,how about using an old panel box as a junction box fed from a new panel box less than 2 feet away,where i would run an oversized neutral to neutral bar in old panel and phase conductors from breakers in new panel spliced into phase conductors in new panel.if anyone replies to this question,please answer in 2 parts.thanks

 

[Dennis Alwon]

the only reason i referenced 300.3b4 was to ask if this exemption from running neutral conductors with phase conductors in column was still allowed.the neutral circuit conductors originate in pull box from bar with oversized neutral.could individual circuit breakers in column panelboard still be used without handle ties?if you think under these conditions,this is a legit install,how about using an old panel box as a junction box fed from a new panel box less than 2 feet away,where i would run an oversized neutral to neutral bar in old panel and phase conductors from breakers in new panel spliced into phase conductors in new panel.if anyone replies to this question,please answer in 2 parts.thanks

I think the NEC allows that install now- FYI-I would not install it that way- however I don't believe it is compliant in 2011. That being the case perhaps you should run individual neutrals for each branch circuit

 

[chris kennedy]

the one neutral would not meet the definition of a MWBC,

Now that I read my post again I would agree Dennis.

Branch Circuit, Multiwire. A branch circuit that consists of two or more ungrounded conductors that have a voltage between them, and a grounded conductor that has equal voltage between it and each ungrounded conductor of the circuit and that is connected to the neutral or grounded conductor of the system.

That would not be the OP's situation.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Now that I read my post again I would agree Dennis.


That would not be the OP's situation.

The way it is worded can be taken differently. Say I have a sp system with 6 wires- 3 on Phase A and 3 on Phase B. I do have 2 or more wires with voltage between them-- does it mean all the wire must have voltage between them- I think so but the wordy is sketchy.