coordination study

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ohmhead

Senior Member
Location
ORLANDO FLA
Engineer needs type of breaker style like SGLA or FH why ? Our GE submittals show this of each breaker type style and more they give this information from GE but he wants it off each breaker any engineer out there that can answer this .

Never had to do this extra work before they always use the submittals !
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Sounds like a smart Engineer.

I went to a job this week to make the adjustments per a coordination study, I had a one line drawing with all the settings listed.

Out of about 30 breakers at least 3 did not match the type listed on the one line. I assume the one line was based on the contract and someone did not follow them.

The breakers that did not match could not be set to match the coordination study so I had to send it back for a 'do over'
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
I am in the process of finishing a job with eight pad mount transformers, over three hundred fifty feeders, and seven generators totaling 10.5 MW's. Every breaker must be listed in the coordination study regardless of what was included in the submittal package.

Each feeder length, conduit material, underground or not, and conductor properties must be accurate.

I am having problems with what the engineer and commissioning people want as far as AFC because they do not like what is being provided by the POCO :roll:.

Roger
 

jim dungar

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Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Engineer needs type of breaker style like SGLA or FH why ? Our GE submittals show this of each breaker type style and more they give this information from GE but he wants it off each breaker any engineer out there that can answer this .

Never had to do this extra work before they always use the submittals !
I would estimate maybe 40% of the projects we do have breakers that are different than the original/order entry submittals, forcing us to revise and resubmit our reports. Most of the differences seem to come from change orders that everyone but the coordination engineer was aware of. Others, come from inaccurate or incomplete submittals. Still others come from 'value' decisions which result in a vendor change from the original order.
 
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charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
I will presume you know what a coordination study is, but if you need an explanation let us know. Suppose a feeder breaker “A” on one panel provides power to a downstream panel. Suppose the downstream panel has a main breaker “B” along with a branch circuit breaker “C.” Then suppose there is a fault on the branch circuit. As a design engineer, I will not be able to tell you which breaker (A, B, or C) will open first, unless I know the model number and the settings of each breaker. That is why I would ask you (i.e., the installer) to tell me which breaker models you have installed.

My responsibilities as a designer are merely to prove that the system can be coordinated. I do that by selecting a manufacturer as my "design basis" for the equipment, by selecting specific breaker models, and finally by selecting breaker settings that will enable coordination. But after I issue the design drawings, there will be a bid process, and some GC or EC will win the bid. Their bid price will be based on equipment by a manufacturer of their choice (so long as the specifications include that manufacturer in the list of approved vendors). If by chance the one they picked is not the same as the one I used as a design basis, then my analysis will not be applicable to the particular installation. That is acceptable because the specifications include the requirement that the EC obtain from the equipment manufacturer a calculation that proves that their equipment has the required coordination.

What I am saying is essentially this: I have to prove that a solution exists, that there is at least one set of panels and breakers that can be properly coordinated. You have to prove that the installation actually works, that the panels and breakers you chose are properly coordinated.
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
Sounds like a smart Engineer.


The breakers that did not match could not be set to match the coordination study so I had to send it back for a 'do over'

This seems to be more the rule than the exception. Breaker styles and specification change as do suppliers.
 

ohmhead

Senior Member
Location
ORLANDO FLA
Yup we kinda know what the study is for lets see down stream breakers will trip before up stream breakers if coordination is designed with impedance of circuit and voltage and AIC ratings with the trip settings of the breakers in the series rated circuits of feeders and branch feeders bal bal. Just have lots a lots of breakers to read monday and they match the submittals but he will not use the submittals i see his point but iam seeing extra work . We also always give length of pipe type pvc rigid imc emt and location ug oh .
Each wire type copper or alu but always used the Submits to give this breaker info nice to see you guys have to do it too hee hee !!!!!

I feel better now thanks
 

RoberteFuhr

Member
Location
Covington, WA.
Breaker Out of Stock when Equipment is Shipped

Breaker Out of Stock when Equipment is Shipped

I have seen it where the manufacturer was out of stock of a breaker whom they originally showed on the submittals. To prevent delaying the shipment of the equipment, they will substitute a different breaker.

This is another reason why it is a good idea to check the breaker types and compare them to the coordination study way before the equipment is tested and energized.
 

markstg

Senior Member
Location
Big Easy
I have seen it where the manufacturer was out of stock of a breaker whom they originally showed on the submittals. To prevent delaying the shipment of the equipment, they will substitute a different breaker.

This is another reason why it is a good idea to check the breaker types and compare them to the coordination study way before the equipment is tested and energized.

Submittals are to tell everyone what you are providing, not what you might be providing if doesn't become inconvenient. If you want to change what you are providing then you need to resubmit.
 

ZinskI/E

Member
Location
New Orleans, LA
What I am saying is essentially this: I have to prove that a solution exists, that there is at least one set of panels and breakers that can be properly coordinated. You have to prove that the installation actually works, that the panels and breakers you chose are properly coordinated.

Nicely said.
 
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