ungrounded residence

[difowler44]

Anyone know the code section on ungrounded residences. I need to know what has to be done on the installation of appliances on a 1950's ungrounded residence.

thanks

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

If you mean what to do about the ground then you use a gfi receptacle and label it NO EQUIPMENT GROUND stickerd should come with the recep.

 

[difowler44]

ungrounded residential

ungrounded residential

I didn't mention this before, but it is for a dish washer which would make the gfi unaccessable. I found more on the subject reading the code. It looks like the grandfathering rule does not apply when it comes to 2wire, ungrounded houses & appliances. You have to install a ground, and it tells you how, even if the house originally was a 2wire, ungrounded type. I saw where the gfi was okay, and a gfi breaker was okay. I always assumed if the house was ungrounded, then like the rest of the house, the appliances could stay ungrounded. From what I read last night, I was wrong. thanks for the response.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I didn't mention this before, but it is for a dish washer which would make the gfi unaccessable. I found more on the subject reading the code. It looks like the grandfathering rule does not apply when it comes to 2wire, ungrounded houses & appliances. You have to install a ground, and it tells you how, even if the house originally was a 2wire, ungrounded type. I saw where the gfi was okay, and a gfi breaker was okay. I always assumed if the house was ungrounded, then like the rest of the house, the appliances could stay ungrounded. From what I read last night, I was wrong. thanks for the response.

Read 250.130(C). If you have the handbook look at exhibit 250.52.

 

[roger]

I always assumed if the house was ungrounded, then like the rest of the house, the appliances could stay ungrounded. From what I read last night, I was wrong. thanks for the response.

250.114 applies so you are correct that an EGC is required.

Roger

 

[jxofaltrds]

250.114 applies so you are correct that an EGC is required.

Roger

Roger and others

If he had the egc could he hard wire it as it would be covered under an earlier code or would you require that a recpt. be added?

Remember when we drilled a hole in the floor next to where it was to be wired?

If so it would make it very hard to add the recpt. without a junction box or putting a floor recpt. there. Understand?

 

[difowler44]

ungrounded residential

ungrounded residential

I guess I am trying unsuccessfully to get a legal ground near the dish washer where no legal ground exists.

I see the exhibit 250.52. It has the grounded plug connected to a "grounding electrode system". A point along the grounding electrode system does not appear to be near the dish washer.

There is the cold water ground under the sink (not within the first 5ft of water pipe entering the building). Who knows where that 5ft would be without excavation.

It appears from reading this article that the ground in exhibit 250.52 has to be connected to a ground that connects to the service equipment. It can't be a separate ground i.e. ground rod, cold water ground.

From reading this I would also assume that the cold water pipe has to be connected to the electrical service equipment to use the first 5 ft of water pipe for a ground or it would not be considered part of the "grounding electrode system".

other possible solutions: gfi, double insulated dish washer?

thanks

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

If you running a new circuit then only thing you lack is to add 2 rods to the old panel or if allowed there just 2 rods to the meter. You now have a grounded service even if just for 1 dish washer.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I guess I am trying unsuccessfully to get a legal ground near the dish washer where no legal ground exists.

I see the exhibit 250.52. It has the grounded plug connected to a "grounding electrode system". A point along the grounding electrode system does not appear to be near the dish washer.

There is the cold water ground under the sink (not within the first 5ft of water pipe entering the building). Who knows where that 5ft would be without excavation.

It appears from reading this article that the ground in exhibit 250.52 has to be connected to a ground that connects to the service equipment. It can't be a separate ground i.e. ground rod, cold water ground.

From reading this I would also assume that the cold water pipe has to be connected to the electrical service equipment to use the first 5 ft of water pipe for a ground or it would not be considered part of the "grounding electrode system".

other possible solutions: gfi, double insulated dish washer?

thanks

Yes you understand.

Couple thoughts.

1 Install the GFCI under the sink.
2 Run the egc back to the panel.

 

[brandon2177k]

Not to change the subject of the OP, but what do you guys normally do when changing out an old built in oven with a new one. For say when you have a 3 wire branch circuit, hot-hot-neutral, originating from a panel with a three wire service, and you have a new oven with a steel flex factory installed with hot-hot-neutral-eq. grnd??

 

[difowler44]

ungrounded residential

ungrounded residential

running the gfi under the sink is a good idea. I like this forum.

thanks

 

[readydave8]

Roger and others

If he had the egc could he hard wire it as it would be covered under an earlier code or would you require that a recpt. be added?

Remember when we drilled a hole in the floor next to where it was to be wired?

If so it would make it very hard to add the recpt. without a junction box or putting a floor recpt. there. Understand?

I may have missed a code change or not have understood this post:

Are you saying a dishwasher can not be hard wired and must be cord & plug connected?

 

[jxofaltrds]

running the gfi under the sink is a good idea. I like this forum.

thanks

Great. Keep coming back. We can be aggressive at times. Do not take it personally.

Stay here learn and contribute.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I may have missed a code change or not have understood this post:

Are you saying a dishwasher can not be hard wired and must be cord & plug connected?

In the OP example it can not be hardwired.

If it was a h/n/g, existing, then IMHO it would still be allowed to be hardwired.

New work --- cord.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Yes you understand.

Couple thoughts.

1 Install the GFCI under the sink.
2 Run the egc back to the panel.

Hmmmm so could he run the 12-2 with ground back to panel that has no ground rods ? I think maybe so.

 

[readydave8]

In the OP example it can not be hardwired.

If it was a h/n/g, existing, then IMHO it would still be allowed to be hardwired.

New work --- cord.

Wow sounds like I missed a big one haven't been doing much new work lately.

(or much studying either I guess)

What is the code reference that requires cord to a dishwasher? I see where 422.16(B)(2) allows it, but have not found the reference that requires it.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Hmmmm so could he run the 12-2 with ground back to panel that has no ground rods ? I think maybe so.

14-2?

Wow sounds like I missed a big one haven't been doing much new work lately.

(or much studying either I guess)

What is the code reference that requires cord to a dishwasher? I see where 422.16(B)(2) allows it, but have not found the reference that requires it.

Try 422.30.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

14-2?



Try 422.30.

Depends on how cheap your trying to go. Rather costly mistake if on trim the DW says 20 amp circuit. Many have heaters in them. I know copper is high but if a few more dollars is the issue then go for it.But it just might bite you in the end.

 

[kwired]

If you running a new circuit then only thing you lack is to add 2 rods to the old panel or if allowed there just 2 rods to the meter. You now have a grounded service even if just for 1 dish washer.

He likely has a grounded service whether he has any grounding electodes at the house or not. If the POCO connects XO on the transformer to a conductor that is grounded anywhere it is a grounded service. An ungrounded service has no intentional grounding of any of the system conductors. Ground fault monitoring equipment would be required on a system like this.

OP is likely talking about a house with no equipment grounding conductors installed with any branch circuits when he uses the term ungrounded

I think the dishwasher needs an equipment grounding conductor. Read 250.110, 250.112, and 250.114. There are not many ways out of being required to use an EGC. If using a GFCI receptacle you now have a cord and plug connected appliance and you would not be able to comply with 250.114. 250.112 may not apply at all since dishwashers are not mentioned in that article. 250.110 may allow no equiment ground if all the conditions mentioned do not exist. Distance from a grounded metal object will likely not allow it though (kitchen faucet, the water pipe supplying the dishwasher, maybe a range, are common items that could be there)

I am assuming he is trying to connect a new dishwasher - he likely needs a new circuit run to it. He can not connect it to SABC whether it has an EGC or not.

 

[jxofaltrds]

He likely has a grounded service whether he has any grounding electodes at the house or not. If the POCO connects XO on the transformer to a conductor that is grounded anywhere it is a grounded service. An ungrounded service has no intentional grounding of any of the system conductors. Ground fault monitoring equipment would be required on a system like this.

OP is likely talking about a house with no equipment grounding conductors installed with any branch circuits when he uses the term ungrounded

I think the dishwasher needs an equipment grounding conductor. Read 250.110, 250.112, and 250.114. There are not many ways out of being required to use an EGC. If using a GFCI receptacle you now have a cord and plug connected appliance and you would not be able to comply with 250.114. 250.112 may not apply at all since dishwashers are not mentioned in that article. 250.110 may allow no equiment ground if all the conditions mentioned do not exist. Distance from a grounded metal object will likely not allow it though (kitchen faucet, the water pipe supplying the dishwasher, maybe a range, are common items that could be there)

I am assuming he is trying to connect a new dishwasher - he likely needs a new circuit run to it. He can not connect it to SABC whether it has an EGC or not.

Exellent explaination.

What if it was not 'likely to become energized"?

I need to sleep on this one.