Qualifications for electrical workers.

[cornbread]

We are currently trying to determine how best to document the qualifications of our electrical workers. I could use a lil advice or direction. I would really like to know how your work place handles the qualification and documentation of electrical workers??We plan on qualifying the electrical folks by voltage classes.

50 -240 V Class 1

240-480 V Class 2

480-5 KV Class 3

5Kv-15KV Class 4

Example, the folks we need to qualify for class 1 will include Electrician, Instrument folks, HVAC folks, Controls/PLC folks. I?m guessing these folks will need to know basic electrical theory, knowledge of safe work practices, LOTO, emergency response, knowledge of PPE, testing equipment, NFPA70E & associated requirements. Does this seem reasonable? Again what doe s your work place do?

As we go higher in voltage we will exclude all but the electricians. We will start to include equipment specific training such as (racking in 480V breakers, MCC bucket installation, 480 breaker install, 480/277 volt lighting? ). Training will include OJT and demonstrated skills. Training will also include reading and understanding our ESMP (electrical safety maint. Procedures).
One problem, how do you qualify the existing work force? We have very experienced electricians, but no formal training or documentation(20 -30 years in the trade)?? Going forward we are documenting all training, but for now we are behind the eight ball.


As always any advice or comments are greatly appreciated.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Here is one place to start looking.

http://cooperbussmann.com/7/CooperBussmannServices.html#training

I wish that people had to put what state that they are from in the profile.

This is one example if he was in central Ohio I could give him a contact for this question (private email). Anyone else think this could help us all?

 

[zog]

Using voltage can cause some confusion, task based makes more sense that is how the big companies do it. Check your PM box for an example.

 

[pfalcon]

And please don't forget the other often neglected electrical workers - the engineers.

In my work place I am not contractually allowed to physically work on electrical stuff but I am expected to get my nose in there.

And of course they tend to forget that "no physical work" thing when it comes to setting dip switches, rotaries, and plugging communication cables. And I think I'll mention being the proverbial third hand ELs need from time to time.

 

[billsnuff]

And of course they tend to forget that "no physical work" thing when it comes to setting dip switches, rotaries, and plugging communication cables. And I think I'll mention being the proverbial third hand ELs need from time to time.

In my role a Maint Mgr for a production facility that amounts to "advise, consult, or instruct........."

 

[cornbread]

Appreciate the replies. The more I look at this, the bigger it gets. I'm think that contracting a company that deals with training may be the way to go. It would be quicker than trying to do it in house and unbiased. Any suggestions or recomendation on training company, note: this is for a plant in Kentucy.

 

[zog]

Appreciate the replies. The more I look at this, the bigger it gets. I'm think that contracting a company that deals with training may be the way to go. It would be quicker than trying to do it in house and unbiased. Any suggestions or recomendation on training company, note: this is for a plant in Kentucy.

I know just the guy, check your PM box.

 

[Strahan]

What about the maintenance mechanics that enter panels to reset overloads or reset vfds? I know they shouldn't be but we all know they do. How do you go about "qualifying" these guys? Unfortunately this practice will not stop. This is all very tough and interesting to comply especially in a big factory. Were getting better but still seem to be spinning our wheels.

 

[zog]

What about the maintenance mechanics that enter panels to reset overloads or reset vfds? I know they shouldn't be but we all know they do. How do you go about "qualifying" these guys? Unfortunately this practice will not stop. This is all very tough and interesting to comply especially in a big factory. Were getting better but still seem to be spinning our wheels.

The 70E training requirements are equipment and task specific. So those people would need basic NFPA 70E training, the necessary PPE, and task specific training for opening panels and resetting overloads/VFD's.

 

[cornbread]

We have qualified workers and qualified electricians. As Zog said we have qualified some workers to perform simple resetting of overloads and resetting tripped breaker (if they know the cuse of the trip or overload). We give them training on 70E & proper PPE usage for the task. We also have a written SOP that details hwo to prperly reset a breaker or overload (left hand rule). Where I'm struggling is troubleshooting 120 VAC circuits, we have several groups that thinks they are qualified to work in / on control panels. I do not agree with the self assement of qualification. I've seen too many folks using meters with out the proper PPE. Hopefully over the next several months I hope to correct that situation with having formal / documented qualifications. That is if they don't run me off first.

 

[petersonra]

A lot depends on why you want to do this.

This is being used as a hammer by some people in some places to create OT for electricians. Probably a lot more than anyone is willing to admit.

I think task based makes the most sense. The thing is that you can train just about anyone to do many simple electrical tasks safely.

You can also work to eliminate some of the need for accessing live parts, especially the need to access them in panels that have serious arc flash potential.

 

[pfalcon]

What about the maintenance mechanics that enter panels to reset overloads or reset vfds? I know they shouldn't be but we all know they do. How do you go about "qualifying" these guys? Unfortunately this practice will not stop. This is all very tough and interesting to comply especially in a big factory. Were getting better but still seem to be spinning our wheels.

You send those people home a few days without pay. No, I'm not being harsh or silly. And yes, the practice can be stopped and should be stopped.

Maintenance mechanics, job setters, group leaders. They don't reset overloads that blow once a year. They reset overloads that blow regularly. That means there's a real problem waiting to turn into major equipment damage or personal injury. Qualify them and all you're doing is qualifying them as a candidate not to make it home one day.

And yes, that problem is why they hire people like me. I take an electrician or two. They check the circuits; I research the circuits. Between us we eliminate the reason for the trips. And the number one reason for the trips? A simple wiring problem no one called in because the departmental fixer-upper-guy knew where to reset the fault. No excuse.

 

[zog]

You send those people home a few days without pay. No, I'm not being harsh or silly. And yes, the practice can be stopped and should be stopped.

Maintenance mechanics, job setters, group leaders. They don't reset overloads that blow once a year. They reset overloads that blow regularly. That means there's a real problem waiting to turn into major equipment damage or personal injury. Qualify them and all you're doing is qualifying them as a candidate not to make it home one day.

And yes, that problem is why they hire people like me. I take an electrician or two. They check the circuits; I research the circuits. Between us we eliminate the reason for the trips. And the number one reason for the trips? A simple wiring problem no one called in because the departmental fixer-upper-guy knew where to reset the fault. No excuse.

Exactly! Been preaching this for years, and if you need something to back it you can always cite OSHA 1910.334(b)(2), which states:

"Reclosing circuits after protective device operation." After a circuit is deenergized by a circuit protective device, the circuit protective device, the circuit may not be manually reenergized until it has been determined that the equipment and circuit can be safely energized. The repetitive manual reclosing of circuit breakers or reenergizing circuits through replaced fuses is prohibited.

Note: When it can be determined from the design of the circuit and the overcurrent devices involved that the automatic operation of a device was caused by an overload rather than a fault condition, no examination of the circuit or connected equipment is needed before the circuit is reenergized.

A machine operator or other non electrically traioned person does not have the ability to determine if the protective action was caused by a fault or not. I have had many clients with this same problem and usually this OSHA article is all they need to change the "normal operating procedures" at thier facility. If something were to happen, you can expect OSHA to cite this article and fine the company.

 

[petersonra]

A machine operator or other non electrically traioned person does not have the ability to determine if the protective action was caused by a fault or not.

And you can?

I doubt that anyone can tell from a typical CB just why it tripped. And even if you do some basic checks there is usually no way to tell.

 

[zog]

And you can?

I doubt that anyone can tell from a typical CB just why it tripped. And even if you do some basic checks there is usually no way to tell.

If the breaker has trip indications (Like modern air and insulated case breakers, and some larger MCCB's with electronic trips) it will tell you the cause. If it does not, per the OSHA article, examination of the circuit is required, in other words, megger it (The circuit) to see if there is a fault.

 

[jim dungar]

A machine operator or other non electrically traioned person does not have the ability to determine if the protective action was caused by a fault or not. I have had many clients with this same problem and usually this OSHA article is all they need to change the "normal operating procedures" at thier facility. If something were to happen, you can expect OSHA to cite this article and fine the company.

Zog, you need to remember that the industrial world deals with arc flash and PPE in many situations that do not use 'power circuit breakers installed in switchgear'.

I am sure that a machine operator can tell if a motor starter, in a control panel or MCC, has 'tripped off' due to an overload and can be reset, in compliance with OSHA.

 

[zog]

Zog, you need to remember that the industrial world deals with arc flash and PPE in many situations that do not use 'power circuit breakers installed in switchgear'.

I am well aware of that, but I think your definition of industrial and mine may vary. I would say most industrial plants have a MV system feeding transformers and LV switchgear. I am in them every day.

I am sure that a machine operator can tell if a motor starter, in a control panel or MCC, has 'tripped off' due to an overload and can be reset, in compliance with OSHA.

I disagree, they typically just keep resetting them with no thought about why they tripped, which leads to more serious problems as pfalcon explained. In fact I bet most machine operators can't explain the difference between an overload and a fault.

 

[pfalcon]

And you can?

Yes, I can and do.

I doubt that anyone can tell from a typical CB just why it tripped. And even if you do some basic checks there is usually no way to tell.

Why would I look at the CB? To distinquish between a fault and a trip you look at the machine. Start by looking at the system the breaker energizes, like a conveyor motor. I'd like to beat a few jobsetters over the head that keep resetting conveyors with slipped chains.

Oh yes! I even put fault indicators that monitor the machine. Frequently there is even a message up on the screen stating WHY the CB is tripping out. Doh! Operators refuse to read.

... I am sure that a machine operator can tell if a motor starter, in a control panel or MCC, has 'tripped off' due to an overload and can be reset, in compliance with OSHA.

Maybe they can, maybe they can't, but often they don't. Operators are under a lot of pressure to crank out that next piece.

I'm not being mean, sarcastic, job protective, cynical, or any of that other nonsense. The simple truth is that operators, jobsetters, group leaders, foreman, and all those other production people are paid to do one thing - PRODUCE. That pressure is so high that making one more piece is often thought to be worth the risk of wrecking the machine for the next week. When I started this job I used to have to pull them back from trying to reset things when smoke was venting. Now, when they open a panel they go home without pay. They have no business in a panel because their priority is wrong for being there and we don't want to change their priority. We want them to focus on production. It makes money to pay my check.

 

[jim dungar]

I am well aware of that, but I think your definition of industrial and mine may vary. I would say most industrial plants have a MV system feeding transformers and LV switchgear. I am in them every day.

. My territory covers Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, and the Dakotas, at least 80% of the facilities, addressing NFPA70E, purchase their power at 480V or less.

I disagree, they typically just keep resetting them with no thought about why they tripped, which leads to more serious problems as pfalcon explained.

I know what they do in practice (they blindly reset things just like many facility electricians do) but it is possible for them to be trained/qualified to tell the difference between an overload (reset only the OLR) and a short (reset the breaker or replace fuse) and therefore be in compliance with OSHA requirements concerning resetting tripped protective devices. Thermal overload relays almost never trip due to a short circuit (the NEC does not require them to).

An Electrical Safe Work Practices program must be in place and rigidly enforced.
We need to break people's bad habits when it comes to electricity.

 

[zog]

. My territory covers Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, and the Dakotas, at least 80% of the facilities, addressing NFPA70E, purchase their power at 480V or less.

OK, light vs heavy industrial? Maybe "industrial" is too broad of a term. But even those that get thier power at 480V, most of them will have switchgear and those breakers can all provide info on the cause of the trip, unless they are 40 years old with mechanical trip devices, which can always (And should) be upgraded.

.
I know what they do in practice (they blindly reset things just like many facility electricians do) but it is possible for them to be trained/qualified to tell the difference between an overload (reset only the OLR) and a short (reset the breaker or replace fuse) and therefore be in compliance with OSHA requirements concerning resetting tripped protective devices. Thermal overload relays almost never trip due to a short circuit (the NEC does not require them to).

Sure they can be trained, but they rarely are.

.
An Electrical Safe Work Practices program must be in place and rigidly enforced.
We need to break people's bad habits when it comes to electricity.

Well that we can agree on 100%