Shared Neutral & Ground

[jxofaltrds]

Why is there a GEC in this non service panel? I hope there is one in the service panel or meter.

Dennis

Did you really just ask that question?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Dennis

Did you really just ask that question?

I guess I did. What am I missing?

 

[jxofaltrds]

I guess I did. What am I missing?

Maybe I jumped to soon but is this panel at a seperate structure? If so is a electrode required?

I hope that I did not 'tee' one up for you. Golf example.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Sorry to say here in my part of the world, Mid-Missouri, there are no licensing authorities or requirements for electricians. The definition of "qualified" is what has allowed work like this to be done. Management of this condo complex have been advised in writing of the hazards and violations.
In 2006 Ameren Missouri and local fire districts have adopted local ordinances governing electrical installations on the docks at the Lake of the Ozarks.
See link for requirements: http://www.ameren.com/sites/aue/lakeoftheozarks/Pages/DockElectricalInstallations.aspx
The dock in this thread is only of 3 docks at this location that inspected because of a dock modification being done. This is a typical find of any docks wired pre-2006. I was told the condo builder actually hired the plumber onsite to finish wiring the docks. There are currently 26,000 plus docks located on this lake. I am finding them one at a time. Any remarks or input about the requirements as shown in the linked documents would be welcome. In early 2011 there is going to be a review of the requirements. NEC 2005 is adopted with some AHJ changes. Thanks again.

That explains everything. Truly feel sorry for what you will be dealing with. So just what authority do you have over a mess like this ? Can only imagine the number of fires and deaths resulting from such work.
Think you see all the violations, some major some not. Keep us posted as to how all works out.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Maybe I jumped to soon but is this panel at a seperate structure? If so is a electrode required?

I hope that I did not 'tee' one up for you. Golf example.

It may be and it may be why only 6 breakers are used but the op didn't say that so..... Makes sense esp. since it feeds dock outlets... Thanks I think you are correct.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Thanks I think you are correct.

Statements like this is one of the main reason that I post and do not JUST lurk here.

We all learn by joining in.

 

[hurk27]

Sad thing is. it will take a few deaths and law suits to get this kind of enforcement changed.

I understand how it is to have your hands tied with red tape. but without inspections and permits or life safety codes to shut down dangerous installs like this, theres not much you can do.

Wiring like that is just outright dangerous, those panels with no low impedance path back to the source can be livened up to 120 volts if a hot was to come into contact with the cabinet, the bond to the metal pole will do nothing to keep this from happening, the Earth or water is of too high resistance, and if this does happen the water around the bottom of those poles will be energized! just hope its not a child it happens too.

 

[stew]

of course lots of violations here but 2 that have been mentioned

are not in my opinion. Where in the code does it say that the #6 feeding the egc bus need to have green tape? Also the removal of the cross link is done to isolate one of the bars to use as an egc buss. If you then bond that bus to the panel I see no voilation of 110.3 .Seems to me thats that why the manufacturer makes them easiliy removable so the panel can be used as a sub or service. Very poor choice of panel for this application . Copper bus only around water especially salt water!!

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

of course lots of violations here but 2 that have been mentioned

are not in my opinion. Where in the code does it say that the #6 feeding the egc bus need to have green tape? Also the removal of the cross link is done to isolate one of the bars to use as an egc buss. If you then bond that bus to the panel I see no voilation of 110.3 .Seems to me thats that why the manufacturer makes them easiliy removable so the panel can be used as a sub or service. Very poor choice of panel for this application . Copper bus only around water especially salt water!!

Not looking number up for you but grounding wires must be bare,green, green with yellow stripe or reidentified if #4 or larger.

If instruction come with the panel to have the linking bar removed then fine. Not likely on this panel

 

[stew]

So jim I am having a real hard time finding anywhere in the code that says the ground has to be as you describe. Anyone else tell me where this is located??

 

[Dennis Alwon]

So jim I am having a real hard time finding anywhere in the code that says the ground has to be as you describe. Anyone else tell me where this is located??

I'll give you a hint 250.119. :grin:

 

[hurk27]

of course lots of violations here but 2 that have been mentioned

are not in my opinion. Where in the code does it say that the #6 feeding the egc bus need to have green tape? Also the removal of the cross link is done to isolate one of the bars to use as an egc buss. If you then bond that bus to the panel I see no voilation of 110.3 .Seems to me thats that why the manufacturer makes them easiliy removable so the panel can be used as a sub or service. Very poor choice of panel for this application . Copper bus only around water especially salt water!!

This is in responce to the above in red:

I sent an e-mail to Square D about the problem of installers removing the neutral bar, here is the reply with the question I sent:

My E-mail to Square D:
The panels I'm referring too have an exposed jumper bar between the two
neutral bars on each side of the panel, there is a place to install the MBJ
(main bonding jumper) screw in the middle of this jumper bar.

Lately I have seen a few installs where the electrician has removed this
jumper bar, mostly in the main lug panels which for the life of me I can't
understand, don't come with grounding bars installed ( main breaker panels
do have them) <<< this is backwards main breaker service panels rarely need
the extra grounding bars since the grounding conductors can land on the
neutral bars when the panel is used as a service panel, but main lug panels
that need them since they are more used in a sub panel configuration and
are not a service panel, this is very confusing as to why Square D does
this.

But back on topic, as to the above removal of the neutral bar tie, since by
design it is the intended point of bonding to the can of the panel, I feel
that it is not intended to be removed, and would violate the UL listing and
110.3 of NFPA 70 (NEC) if this bar is removed, but I can not find any
documents on the Schneider web site to back this theory?

The problem is there is a few manufactures who do allow this neutral link
to be removed when separate neutral and grounding bars are needed, they
also provide a MBJ that will bond the newly made grounding bar to the can,
this bad practice has allowed many installers think this practice can be
done on any manufactures panels. I think this needs to be better clarified
to the listing intent of the design that this is not intended to be allowed
for Square D load centers.

The reason is when I try to teach others as to what is allowed and what is
not, it is hard to when there is no documentation to back it up.

In the attached photo you will see the removed bar, along with the fact
there is no bond of the load center can, which there is no fault current
path to open the OCPD in the event of a fault to the can.
Thanks
Wayne

Good Afternoon Wayne, hope your Fri. is going good?
First let us begin by explaining the design of Square D load centers and this design has been around since the mid 1980's at least.
Square D load centers are designed with what is called a "Split Neutral System", where there is a main NEUTRAL bar at the top of the
interior, where the Main Service neutral lug is located, that connects the left and right side branch NEUTRAL bars in the panel.
This neutral system is NOT for the branch grounding connection and should NOT be separated by any means for any reason. So based
on the photo you sent, someone has removed the Main Neutral strap, therefore rendering the interior NON-USEFUL. Also, they have
not read the labeling on the product showing where the bonding means should be installed and they have installed the bonding
screw in an incorrect location and manner, therefore that particular panel is not even bonded?

In addition, the statement made below in reference to the Sq D Main Lug panels not coming with ground bars and main breaker panels
having ground bars, is incorrect and actually backwards. Square D Main Lug load centers do in fact come with ground bars (either
installed or included with the load center) Main Breaker Load Centers do not and the ground bars need to be purchased separately.
The very reason that main lug panels come with ground bars is for sub-panel applications where normally the sub-panel requires
the branch grounds to be separated from the branch neutrals and main breaker panels for Service Entrance panels.

Again, the main neutral bar, for that matter any portion of the neutral bar system should NOT be removed or separated for any reason.
attached are a couple documents that may help you with the features of Sq D load centers.

I hope this helps you and if you have any other ?'s just let us know.
Thank you
Glen





On December 10, 2010 at 9:57 AM, thelma wrote:

Please respond directly to "Hurk27" and cc me.

Thanks

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

A red tag is on it's way

 

[stew]

i wonder if siemans is the same. they include a copper jumper that is very easily removed and appears they intend for it to be removed and one side bonded to allow for sub panel usage. anyone know?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I know that Ge has a bracket that spans across the two bars that are on opposite sides of the panel. When I make the panel a sub panel I remove the bar and bond the equipment grounding bar. I believe that GE and perhaps Seimens actual make a replacement bracket that is non conductive that will replace the conductive bracket. I have never installed that non conductive bracket and I don't understand why it would be needed.

 

[hurk27]

Seimens/ITE, GE, and a few others even include in there instruction on removing the bracket when used as a non-service rated panel, but Square D, T&B and a few others do not allow this, and this is where the confusion is, like the response in the e-mail, you have to read the instructions.

The problem I have is Square D doesn't say you can't do it anywhere in the instructions, this was the part I reflected when I sent a reply to them, and since we are use to a permissible code system with the NEC, this can be mistaken as permission to remove the bar that was not designed to be removed.