New Addition and Current Code

[Little Bill]

I would like some of you Inspectors and ECs to chime in on this. I am planning on an addition to my house. I will do the wiring myself. As my house is now, the GEC is tied into the service drop then down 1/2" emt into the house. It is run to the metal water piping in the house and not into the panel. First of all, the water pipes enter the house more than 5' from the service panel. I'm not sure what the code required when the house was built in the mid 80's. My question is, will an inspection on my addition cause me to have to change how my GEC enters and connects in the house? Also, would there be any advantage/reason to running the GEC into the panel and landing on the ground bar regardless of whether I do the addition or not? The panel does have the neutral and ground bar connected by a bracket and bonded to the panel. Need some thoughts on this.
Thanks

 

[WheresMyWiggy]

How exactly is the GEC tied to the service drop? It should be connected from main panel to an electrode such as ground rods. There should also be a GEC connected to the first 5' of water piper that enters your house(with clamps jumping the water meter), not 5' from your panel[250.52(A)(1)]. How big of an addition are you planning?

 

[WheresMyWiggy]

I forgot to mention[250.50] says that if a concrete encased electrode, such as rebar in a poured slab, is installed it needs to be bonded to your main

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Bill the installation of the GEC, as you explained it, appears to be a violation. Any GEC run inside a metal raceway requires the raceway to be bonded at both ends.

I am not sure there is an advantage to running the GEC to the panel or not, however that is where I land it-- actually I usually land it in the meter but some areas won't allow that. This would eliminate the gec in the conduit up the side of the house so that's a good thing.

If your water pipe is a metal pipe run underground for 10' or more then the gec must be connected to the pipe within 5' of where it enters, not 5' from the panel.

Hope that helps.

 

[hurk27]

While the requirement of the first 5' of waterline is the grounding electrode was a (99) or (2002) code change, and not sure what your area will want, most will want a ground rod at the service as a electrode also, the best place to start is with you AHJ for your area, and try to learn if you have a state wide code or local codes, and what those codes require, for the most part the law can't make you bring a house up to todays code just because your putting a addition on, but it also says you cant create a violation with this addition, and in some cases the added load can put an existing service undersized subject to a load calculation, many areas will enforce total house upgrade if a service upgrade is done, how much will depend upon your location.

so like I said, go to your state web site and read all that you can, then find out from your AHJ whether its state level or local level, here in Indiana we have state wide building codes only.

augie47 is a inspector down there maybe he will chime in as to what TN. requires.

 

[Little Bill]

How exactly is the GEC tied to the service drop? It should be connected from main panel to an electrode such as ground rods. There should also be a GEC connected to the first 5' of water piper that enters your house(with clamps jumping the water meter), not 5' from your panel[250.52(A)(1)]. How big of an addition are you planning?

Apparently when this forum was updated/revamped a couple of my posts were left out. I already know that it wouldn't be up to codes if wired today. I was asking if what is there would be "grandfathered." The GEC is tied to the grounded neutral at the weather head (or near) then down the wall in 1/2" emt. It then enters the basement near the ground then up the wall and stapled on the board that the panel mounts on. It then is clamped onto the water pipe, which as I stated, does not enter the house within 5' from the panel. I don't see anywhere that a ground rod was used.

 

[WheresMyWiggy]

Wow that is an unusual bonding method I have yet to see. It would make sense since that is what essentially do in the main panel. It would really be up to the inspector in your area. I understand that the water pipe does not enter your house 5' from the main panel. The code requires the water pipe be clamped within 5' from where the water pipe enters your house, no matter where it enters. If this is the case, then the AHJ might not have a problem with grandfathering it in. If the addition is big enough, and has a poured slab, he might want you to bond the new slab to the existing service.

 

[Little Bill]

Wow that is an unusual bonding method I have yet to see. It would make sense since that is what essentially do in the main panel. It would really be up to the inspector in your area. I understand that the water pipe does not enter your house 5' from the main panel. The code requires the water pipe be clamped within 5' from where the water pipe enters your house, no matter where it enters. If this is the case, then the AHJ might not have a problem with grandfathering it in. If the addition is big enough, and has a poured slab, he might want you to bond the new slab to the existing service.

Thanks, I'm going to check with him before starting anything.

 

[pete m.]

If the addition is big enough, and has a poured slab, he might want you to bond the new slab to the existing service.

Is that a local requirement?

Pete

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Is that a local requirement?

Pete

This has been discussed before. As the code reads now I am of the opinion that you must use the available CEE whether you are working on the service or not. I do not see where the code gives exemption for additions. They do not enforce that here but I think they should. Others disagree with me.

 

[pete m.]

This has been discussed before. As the code reads now I am of the opinion that you must use the available CEE whether you are working on the service or not. I do not see where the code gives exemption for additions. They do not enforce that here but I think they should. Others disagree with me.

I agree with your interpretation of the requirement for the CEE. Although I'm not sure the slab, even if it contains re-bar, would meet the description in 250.52(A)(3).

3) Concrete-Encased Electrode. An electrode encased by at least 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete, located horizontally near the bottom or vertically, and within that portion of a concrete foundation or footing that is in direct contact with the earth, consisting of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of one or more bare or zinc galvanized or other electrically conductive coated steel reinforcing bars or rods of not less than 13 mm (1/2 in.) in diameter, or consisting of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of bare copper conductor not smaller than 4 AWG. Reinforcing bars shall be permitted to be bonded together by the usual steel tie wires or other effective means. Where multiple concrete-encased electrodes are present at a building or structure, it shall be permissible to bond only one into the grounding electrode system.

Pete

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I agree with your interpretation of the requirement for the CEE. Although I'm not sure the slab, even if it contains re-bar, would meet the description in 250.52(A)(3).

3) Concrete-Encased Electrode. An electrode encased by at least 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete, located horizontally near the bottom or vertically, and within that portion of a concrete foundation or footing that is in direct contact with the earth, consisting of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of one or more bare or zinc galvanized or other electrically conductive coated steel reinforcing bars or rods of not less than 13 mm (1/2 in.) in diameter, or consisting of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of bare copper conductor not smaller than 4 AWG. Reinforcing bars shall be permitted to be bonded together by the usual steel tie wires or other effective means. Where multiple concrete-encased electrodes are present at a building or structure, it shall be permissible to bond only one into the grounding electrode system.

Pete

Yeah I assumed the poster meant the footings of the slab....but I may be wrong.

 

[Little Bill]

This has been discussed before. As the code reads now I am of the opinion that you must use the available CEE whether you are working on the service or not. I do not see where the code gives exemption for additions. They do not enforce that here but I think they should. Others disagree with me.

I'm not sure about new additions, but I know on new builds it is. If I do the addition, I will tie to the CEE then take that to where the AHJ wants me to. Actually, the new addition would be within 5' of where the water pipe enters.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I forgot to mention[250.50] says that if a concrete encased electrode, such as rebar in a poured slab, is installed it needs to be bonded to your main

Maybe, maybe not. Rebar is not always a CEE.

This has been discussed before. As the code reads now I am of the opinion that you must use the available CEE whether you are working on the service or not. I do not see where the code gives exemption for additions. They do not enforce that here but I think they should. Others disagree with me.

I agree.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I agree with your interpretation of the requirement for the CEE. Although I'm not sure the slab, even if it contains re-bar, would meet the description in 250.52(A)(3).

3) Concrete-Encased Electrode. An electrode encased by at least 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete, located horizontally near the bottom or vertically, and within that portion of a concrete foundation or footing that is in direct contact with the earth, consisting of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of one or more bare or zinc galvanized or other electrically conductive coated steel reinforcing bars or rods of not less than 13 mm (1/2 in.) in diameter, or consisting of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of bare copper conductor not smaller than 4 AWG. Reinforcing bars shall be permitted to be bonded together by the usual steel tie wires or other effective means. Where multiple concrete-encased electrodes are present at a building or structure, it shall be permissible to bond only one into the grounding electrode system.

Pete

Depends on what "near the bottom" means.

Look at the slab here:
http://publicecodes.citation.com/st...b4v06_4_sec003_par020.htm?bu=OH-P-2005-000004

I do not like to post figures that may violate copyright.

 

[hurk27]

For a house that was built in the mid 80's an addition does not require the whole house to be brought up to todays codes? the service isn't even being changed out or did I miss something?

 

[jxofaltrds]

For a house that was built in the mid 80's an addition does not require the whole house to be brought up to todays codes? the service isn't even being changed out or did I miss something?

What you just said is correct.

But you added a CEE so it must be used.

If you added a circuit for a bathroom receptacle does it have to be a 20 AMP or would you allow a 15, using the old code?

 

[Little Bill]

What you just said is correct.

But you added a CEE so it must be used.

If you added a circuit for a bathroom receptacle does it have to be a 20 AMP or would you allow a 15, using the old code?

Mike,
If this was in your area, where would you suggest the GEC from the CEE be tied to given my description of my current arrangement?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Mike,
If this was in your area, where would you suggest the GEC from the CEE be tied to given my description of my current arrangement?

It must be tied somewhere at the service

 

[Little Bill]

It must be tied somewhere at the service

Thanks!
I'm willing to chip in to get your new title posted beneath your name.:grin: