how do you measure inrush current?

Status
Not open for further replies.

jeremysterling

Senior Member
Location
Austin, TX
I have seen an "amp-clamp" meter that had an "inrush" button.

My questions are,

Does the "min/max" button on ($100-200) amp-clamp meters function the same as the "inrush" button?

Will the "min/max" measurement of ($100-200) amp-clamp meters even be close to the actual inrush current of, for example, a 5HP motor starting?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
You would want to know the sample time the meter records.

For instance the min max record feature on my 87 has sample time settings of 1ms, 100ms, and 1 second.
 

jeremysterling

Senior Member
Location
Austin, TX
You would want to know the sample time the meter records.

For instance the min max record feature on my 87 has sample time settings of 1ms, 100ms, and 1 second.

Thanks for the prompt reply, but most of us know your 87 is not a buckfifty ampclamp!

How can the meter display peaking current over time. I would think max is max. Or is it averaged over your selected sample time?
 

PetrosA

Senior Member
Thanks for the prompt reply, but most of us know your 87 is not a buckfifty ampclamp!

How can the meter display peaking current over time. I would think max is max. Or is it averaged over your selected sample time?

I think what iwire meant is that whether a clamp meter reads inrush current is related to what the sample time is. If you take a clamp meter with a 2x/sec. sample time (500 ms) then you're probably going to miss the inrush moment. If it can sample down to every millisecond, you'll get it for sure. Fluke advertises an inrush function that gets triggered by the inrush. This could just be advertising code for "the display won't show anything till a high current is read." There are other meters with min./max. functions that don't actually capture the inrush. You really need to pore over the spec sheets a little and maybe call a few places. You could also try the forum at eevblog.com for some good answers on multimeters in general.
 

jeremysterling

Senior Member
Location
Austin, TX
I think what iwire meant is that whether a clamp meter reads inrush current is related to what the sample time is. If you take a clamp meter with a 2x/sec. sample time (500 ms) then you're probably going to miss the inrush moment. If it can sample down to every millisecond, you'll get it for sure. Fluke advertises an inrush function that gets triggered by the inrush. This could just be advertising code for "the display won't show anything till a high current is read." There are other meters with min./max. functions that don't actually capture the inrush. You really need to pore over the spec sheets a little and maybe call a few places. You could also try the forum at eevblog.com for some good answers on multimeters in general.

I was poring over spec sheets that don't really answer my questions.

You answered one of my questions that the "inrush" feature is exclusive to Fluke.

Thanks for your insight on the min/max feature.
 

ELA

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrical Test Engineer
How do you measure inrush current?

How do you measure inrush current?

I would ask if you want to know what the inrush current profile is?
Or are you only interested in what the peak current is?
For what purpose are you interested in knowing the current levels?
Only for your motor example or for other needs?

What device you require will depend upon the profile of the inrush current.

When I measure inrush current I am generally concerned with the profile. This includes what the various peak levels are and over what time duration. For this a person probably wants an oscilloscope or some type of recording device that will show the waveform.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
110108-2229 EST

jeremysterling:

I started this some time ago so some of my comments are redundant to others.

What do you mean by "inrush current"? Since you mentioned motor I am going to guess you want some information that might relate to a semi-steady state current that results during the time the motor is ramping from 0 to full RPM. I further assume that measuring the maximum RMS during this time with the RMS itself being of moderately short averaging time, may be 16 to 32 milliseconds (1 to 2 60 Hz cycles) would be appropriate.

I do not think you are looking for the type of inrush current that occurs in a transformer.

A reference:
http://support.fluke.com/find-sales/download/asset/2138412_a_w.pdf

This does not provide adequate detail. You should note that Peak MIN-MAX is different than MIN-MAX. The peak mode does really read close to an instantaneous peak. Quite obviously a normally DMM won't read the instantaneous peak of a 0.1 microsecond spike. This is a bandwidth problem. From a comment in the Fluke note it is more likely the pulse needs to be about 250 microseconds, 1/4 millisecond, long.

I do not believe your interest is in a measurement of Peak MIN-MAX.

Rather I think you want to use the standard MIN-MAX mode. This is going to collect the MIN and MAX values of a signal that has been averaged over some period. If the normal measurements were AC RMS something, then these would be the units captured.

Whereas peak MIN-MAX is more like a fast response DC measurement and collects the peak instantaneous voltage. So this mode is a peak voltage measurement and on a sine wave will be 1.414 times the RMS voltage of a steady state sine wave.

On my older Fluke 27 there is limited information on response time. It does indicate a reading update rate of 2 measurements per second. I will guess that MIN-MAX may have somewhat faster response, but maybe not.

Whatever meter you might use should response fast enough for your purpose. So you will need to study spec sheets, make calls, and possibly do some experiments.

Motors have inertia and therefore take time to reach full speed. A motor without external mechanical load will have the least inertia, and therefore the fastest startup time. I have never run startup time measurements on any motors other than my DeWalt radial arm saw with a 10 inch blade and at the end of more than 100 ft of #12 at 120 V. Its start time was maybe 3 to 5 seconds and about 70 A. This inrush current was easy to measure with an analog Amprobe.

Can you define your goal for the measurement you desire to make?

.
 

wptski

Senior Member
Location
Warren, MI
This was discussed some time ago in a Fluke forum with a Fluke support tech. Fluke seems to have changed their tune over the years about this. In the past they claimed that one could use, say a Fluke i1010 and a Fluke 189 in min/max mode to capture inrush.

Now, maybe since they've included inrush measuring mode on some of their products they say that need a circuit that can be armed and wait for a trigger. The trigger being >5A.
 

jeremysterling

Senior Member
Location
Austin, TX
Thank you all for replying. My interest in inrush measurement is for fact-gathering for reporting diagnostic measurements to my supervisor when I am troubleshooting (commercial retail) service calls in the field.

After reading all the posts, I can see the complexities of measuring inrush.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
For inrush currents or any other transient currents, I generally use a Fluke clip-on current transformer with a resistive burden and record the resulting voltage on a digital storage oscilloscope. Maybe it's not the sort of equipment that many would usually have to hand but it's kit I routinely carry around in the back of my car.
And it makes this kind of measurement very easy.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
I think as gar said, you need to define what you want to know. Unfortunately a lot of people use the term "Inrush Current" to describe "Starting Current", not realizing there are specific differences and definitions.

"Inrush" is only supposed to mean the instantaneous current that takes place the instant your power is applied to a motor, transformer or other inductive load, or capacitor charging current on a DC conversion systems such as a power supply, VSD or ballast. In an induction device, an extremely high peak occurs because for the first instant, before the magnetic fields can be created and impedance occurs, the only thing slowing down a current rise is the resistance of the winding wire. This value is not typically all that useful in day-to-day troubleshooting because it varies by what phase angle point the incoming line sine wave was at in the moment of connection and to a small amount, the temperature of the windings. On a motor this can be very short, maybe a few cycles, on a transformer is can be 10-100ms or more depending on the size of the transformer. So that's why the sampling rate makes a big difference on true "inrush" current because if you are sampling every 100ms, you may miss a significant peak value.

The current that is seen when accelerating an AC motor is called "Starting Current" and takes place AFTER the inrush current drops off. This varies by starting method, but with an Across-the-Line start it increases to typically the Locked Rotor Current value of a motor and can take upwards of 20 seconds or so (longer will typically trip OL relays). This is what is often more useful in doing routine maintenance because as motor winding insulation starts to break down with age, the values will show an increase over time. Sampling rate is relatively unimportant when looking at Starting Current.
 

jeremysterling

Senior Member
Location
Austin, TX
Wow, is this complicated or what?

I just use my Fluke 335 and press the inrush button.....:cool:

Thank you cow. The 335 comes in right at $200 and has the exclusive Fluke "inrush" button.;)

... a lot of people use the term "Inrush Current" to describe "Starting Current", not realizing there are specific differences and definitions.

"Inrush"... value is not typically all that useful in day-to-day troubleshooting...

Thank you for the clarification. I will resolve to use the term "starting current" for motor starting diagnostics.:)
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
110109-1745 EST

To repeat some points I have made in various threads.

Instantaneously the current thru an inductor can not change.

To provide a clearer understanding of an LR circuit consider an inductance with an air core. This eliminates all problems with magnetic materials, the inductance is independent of the flux density around the coil (inductance is invariant), and there is no residual flux remnant after current is removed.

Now consider an ideal LR circuit where all resistance is external to the inductor. This is the typical way one analyzes circuits. In real life some of that resistance is physically within the coil.

Consider a series circuit with a battery, a switch, a resistor, and an inductor. Let t=0 seconds to be the time at which the switch is closed. At the instantaneous moment before the switch is closed we assume the current thru inductor is 0. This would be the case if the switch had been open for some time, and there was no other current source to the inductor.

From my statement above that one characteristic of an inductor is that the current can not instantaneously change this means that at the instant just after the switch is closed the current will still be zero. However, starting at that point, t=0, the current does start to rise. The voltage across the R and L instantaneously rises to the battery voltage, and also this is the instantaneous voltage across the ideal inductor because current is 0.

The rate of rise of current is determined by the L/R ratio. For a fixed resistance the larger L is the slower is the current rise, and vice versa. These experiments are simple to run with an oscilloscope.

There is no high inrush current with a simple LR series circuit.

Where things get complicated is when a ferromagnetic core is added to the inductor. But the addition of ferromagnetic material does not change any of my above comments.

With an inductor with a ferromagnetic core we have something that may have a varying inductance under different conditions.

Ferromagnetic materials have a saturation characteristic. This effect may have been first discovered by Edison and his employees. Summer 1879. From "Menlo Park Reminiscences" p310.
--- Upton --- He discovered that a weber turn (that is, an ampere turn) was a constant factor, a given number of which always produced the same effect magnetically. This point was practically new to the scientific world at that time.

In those days the makers of dynamos simply oversoaked their magnet circuit with current, knowing nothing about magnetic saturation. They thought that the more the current they sent through the coils, the greater the effect they would obtain. It never occurred to them that the increased current effect would be scattered in every direction but the right one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturation_(magnetic)
http://www.phy6.org/Electric/-E25-Tech.htm

I did not completely read the following, but it appears to be rather good.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformer

Back to the inrush discussion. If the core of an inductor is left with a large residual magnetic flux, then when current is applied in the correct direction the flux level will be further increased. This will drive the core more into saturation, the inductance drops, and the current rises rapidly. In an AC circuit the voltage will reverse, and this changes the flux direction and the inductance rises. An equilibrium condition will ultimately occur. That spike of current resulting from saturation is the peak inrush. This inrush is highly variable because of random turn off times of excitation to the inductor, and the random time and thus phase of turn on.

Most transformers have very little air gap in the ferromagnetic flux path and thus the ratio of saturation peak current to steady state magnetization current can be large.

Motors have a bigger air gap and there are other factors affecting inrush current.


Looked at my Fluke 87III this afternoon. Its pulse response is listed as 1 millisecond, and regular MIN-MAX is 100 milliseconds.

.
 

PetrosA

Senior Member
Marketers really muddy the terms for these measurements. Fluke uses "inrush" accurately in their literature to describe the way they measure the initial spike, but inaccurately go on to say that it's the reading that shows you starting current, which it's not (as Jraef explains). My Agilent uses a recording mode that measures a max, min and average value and in addition gives me the option to specify how much greater the max reading has to be to record is as a new max value. It also has what's called a "Peak" (1ms peak in the instructions) measurement that only applies to voltage readings. Again, more confusion.

As far as price vs. this function goes it's hard to say. Many of the lower end clamp meters are rebadged ones. A few of the companies that definitely don't rebadge meters are Fluke, Agilent, Hioki, Yokogawa and AEMC but you're not going to find many for $100 among them although AEMC seems to be lowering their prices (and functionality offered) lately. For lower priced clamp meters, I'd probably look at Greenlee, Ideal and possibly Klein. They all are rebadged as far as I know, but seem pretty decent quality.
 

PetrosA

Senior Member
I wish we had more time to edit our recent posts...

Ok, I went and did some tests with my Agilent (U1211A). It turns out the instructions have some errors in them, namely, the peak function does capture inrush and not voltage only, which I'll notify them about. I used all the different methods of capture (peak, recording min/max/avg and the regular reading you get in A mode.

Here's what I did: I took a 1500W Pelonis Disc heater then an old motor that's laying around and I set the clamp on the hot wire. I got the regular reading with heater or motor running, then the peak reading while plugging them in, then max/min/avg for each by allowing the meter to settle to close to zero A then plugging in the load and letting it run.

Heater:

Running load in regular A mode = 12.49A
Peak function (Inrush) = 45.60A
Min/Max/AVG = 0.06A/32.45A/ N/A (updates the longer the unit is running)


Motor:

Running load in regular A mode = 3.83A
Peak function (Inrush) = 16.75A (also as high as 24.55A, possibly depends on where the sine wave is at startup?)
Min/Max/AVG = 0.06A/4.33A/ N/A (same as above)


From these results I'd say my clamp has a min/max/avg sample rate that's much lower than what it uses during the peak measurements since the max readings are never nearly as high as the peak readings. I wouldn't assume that other meters will do the same with similarly named modes. I am going to contact Agilent and ask what exactly it's doing in Peak mode.
 
Thanks for the prompt reply, but most of us know your 87 is not a buckfifty ampclamp!

How can the meter display peaking current over time. I would think max is max. Or is it averaged over your selected sample time?

This was discussed before on another topic. In theory there is no instantaneous measurement possible as there is always - however infinitesimally small that may be - a TIME PERIOD is required to perform the measurement. Conversely within that time period, change of value will occur. The magnitude of change maybe well within your measurement error, but it is a change nevertheless. So all measurements are averaged in some form or other. Mechanical measuring instruments had they own averaging function built in by various pneumatic or other dampening devices and digital metering 'samples'. Mechanical meters used to have a pushable slider, and you can understand that the sliding mechanical resistance actually 'eats up' some of the true maximum/minimum value. The digital max/min is only influenced by the sampling or collection time length. To further complicate things some devices have variable sampling based on rate of change.
 
110108-2229 EST

jeremysterling:

I started this some time ago so some of my comments are redundant to others.

What do you mean by "inrush current"? Since you mentioned motor I am going to guess you want some information that might relate to a semi-steady state current that results during the time the motor is ramping from 0 to full RPM. I further assume that measuring the maximum RMS during this time with the RMS itself being of moderately short averaging time, may be 16 to 32 milliseconds (1 to 2 60 Hz cycles) would be appropriate.

I do not think you are looking for the type of inrush current that occurs in a transformer.

A reference:
http://support.fluke.com/find-sales/download/asset/2138412_a_w.pdf

This does not provide adequate detail. You should note that Peak MIN-MAX is different than MIN-MAX. The peak mode does really read close to an instantaneous peak. Quite obviously a normally DMM won't read the instantaneous peak of a 0.1 microsecond spike. This is a bandwidth problem. From a comment in the Fluke note it is more likely the pulse needs to be about 250 microseconds, 1/4 millisecond, long.

I do not believe your interest is in a measurement of Peak MIN-MAX.

Rather I think you want to use the standard MIN-MAX mode. This is going to collect the MIN and MAX values of a signal that has been averaged over some period. If the normal measurements were AC RMS something, then these would be the units captured.

Whereas peak MIN-MAX is more like a fast response DC measurement and collects the peak instantaneous voltage. So this mode is a peak voltage measurement and on a sine wave will be 1.414 times the RMS voltage of a steady state sine wave.

On my older Fluke 27 there is limited information on response time. It does indicate a reading update rate of 2 measurements per second. I will guess that MIN-MAX may have somewhat faster response, but maybe not.

Whatever meter you might use should response fast enough for your purpose. So you will need to study spec sheets, make calls, and possibly do some experiments.

Motors have inertia and therefore take time to reach full speed. A motor without external mechanical load will have the least inertia, and therefore the fastest startup time. I have never run startup time measurements on any motors other than my DeWalt radial arm saw with a 10 inch blade and at the end of more than 100 ft of #12 at 120 V. Its start time was maybe 3 to 5 seconds and about 70 A. This inrush current was easy to measure with an analog Amprobe.

Can you define your goal for the measurement you desire to make?

.

Actually motors are modeled as transformers and before rotation 'starts' there is a magnetizing current that is identical to an air-gap transformer model, quickly decays and becomes the slowly decaying - dependent on the total inertia - starting inrush current.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top