hard copper, for fire alarm reporting

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Which is correct.

Local fiber provider says, ok for fiber to be used for fire alarm reporting.


Telephone provider says must use hard copper from local telephone office

which is correct?
 
All currently manufactured FACP's with an integrated DACT require an analog phone line (ie copper or what was called POTS). let's use verizon FIOS as an example. Their back up battery system for the VOIP is less than 24 hours, so it's not compliant with 72. Also VOIP is not part of the PSTN (public switched telephone network). All DACTs must be connected to the PTSN, not VOIP.

The Telcos are publically regulated utilities and can and do lie all the time about anything alarm related. It's not slam on them, just a plain truth.

I've been told since their fiber demarcs say POTS, it's OK to use with a fire panel. Well, even if I believe that, I can think of three places where it's not working, but the customer doesn't care. The telco said it was fine, is their excuse. Its the FACP, it's bad. I even had one customer agree to have the panel replaced. If the dialer trouble came back, he would have to pay for it, and did he ever.
 
nhfire77 said:
All currently manufactured FACP's with an integrated DACT require an analog phone line (ie copper or what was called POTS). let's use verizon FIOS as an example. Their back up battery system for the VOIP is less than 24 hours, so it's not compliant with 72. Also VOIP is not part of the PSTN (public switched telephone network). All DACTs must be connected to the PTSN, not VOIP.

The Telcos are publically regulated utilities and can and do lie all the time about anything alarm related. It's not slam on them, just a plain truth.

I've been told since their fiber demarcs say POTS, it's OK to use with a fire panel. Well, even if I believe that, I can think of three places where it's not working, but the customer doesn't care. The telco said it was fine, is their excuse. Its the FACP, it's bad. I even had one customer agree to have the panel replaced. If the dialer trouble came back, he would have to pay for it, and did he ever.
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Couldn't a T1 line or fiber be used with an Analog Telephone Adapter?
 
stevebea said:
Couldn't a T1 line or fiber be used with an Analog Telephone Adapter?
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Is T1 considered part of the PSTN?? The fiber converter would not be acceptable, based on the 24 hours plus 5 min in alarm back up battery requirement. Also, the panel isn't listed for use with such an adaptor.

Could it work? Sure, would I do it, not unless their was a cell or radio back up.
 
nhfire77 said:
Is T1 considered part of the PSTN?? The fiber converter would not be acceptable, based on the 24 hours plus 5 min in alarm back up battery requirement. Also, the panel isn't listed for use with such an adaptor.

Could it work? Sure, would I do it, not unless their was a cell or radio back up.
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Does 72 even apply on the utility side of the demarc?
 
iwire said:
Does 72 even apply on the utility side of the demarc?
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No, phone lines are defined as analog by the panel manufacturers. Anything not POTS is not acceptable, at least that is what Silent Knight and Firelite tell me. I have nothing to back that up NEC wise.
 
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Additionally, as the NJ link states, most fiber devices only supply 4-8 hours of power for voice dialing. If the panel cannot dial out at 9 hours and it is a central station or remote station fire alarm, you are not compliant.

Now, to confront the Demarc specifically, do you call the fiber terminal the demarc, or the fiber itself. I dont know. What I do know is, all VOIP will eventually cause Comm Fail and Fail to Communicate troubles eventually. I have yet to see a single system that hasn't.

I guess its my opinion, and NJ's to
 
nhfire77 said:
No, phone lines are defined as analog by the panel manufacturers. Anything not POTS is not acceptable, at least that is what Silent Knight and Firelite tell me. I have nothing to back that up NEC wise.
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Nhfire77, I assume this also holds true for the secondary line that it must be POTS? And does the secondary line need to be dedicated or could it be a shared line? Thanks.
 
stevebea said:
Nhfire77, I assume this also holds true for the secondary line that it must be POTS? And does the secondary line need to be dedicated or could it be a shared line? Thanks.
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Neither line must be dedicated. Although, it is customary to make the primary line dedicated, it is not code. As long as the DACT can seize the line (RJ-31X jack) It does not need to be dedicated.

If you are using a DACT, the option for a second phone line exists. But also a cell, a radio, a microwave or other system. See 2007 72.8.6.3.2.1.4

thats why all new DACTS now allow the second line to be turned off, or unmonitored for voltage

This all applies to supervising station fire alarms.
 
nhfire77 said:
IWIRE,

I see an exeception for an ISDN telephone line. Maybe similar to T1? 2007 72 8.6.3.2.1.4
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ISDN being a digital transmission over teleco's phone lines, correct? In essence dosen't any analog line become a digital transmission at some point in the teleco's lines? I always thought ISDN was the equivalent of dial-up internet service. Trying to wrap my mind around this, thanks nhfire77.
 
stevebea said:
ISDN being a digital transmission over teleco's phone lines, correct? In essence dosen't any analog line become a digital transmission at some point in the teleco's lines? I always thought ISDN was the equivalent of dial-up internet service. Trying to wrap my mind around this, thanks nhfire77.
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Good question. In my mind the demarc should be analog. But that's just me.

Who else has an opinion here?
 
I wonder how much backup power the telco generally has on their fiber lines. Around here, with the advent of at&t UVerse, the telco has been chopping off the copper near entrances to neighborhoods or users and converting it to fiber. So in essence, even the old copper pots is converted to fiber really early on in the chain. This could have a bearing on determining if fiber, at least on the provider end, has proper backup to endure a a long power outage.
Interesting discussion though...
 
Jacob S said:
I wonder how much backup power the telco generally has on their fiber lines. Around here, with the advent of at&t UVerse, the telco has been chopping off the copper near entrances to neighborhoods or users and converting it to fiber. So in essence, even the old copper pots is converted to fiber really early on in the chain. This could have a bearing on determining if fiber, at least on the provider end, has proper backup to endure a a long power outage.
Interesting discussion though...
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FIOS has a 12 V DC 7AH battery as a back up. Its rated for 8 hours. That's if the battery is new.

Comcast is also at 8 Hours.

The only reason its that long is E911.
 
iwire said:
I do not understand.
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OK, that was a misleading statement by me.


A DACT is connected to a copper "telephone line" (formerly "POTS")

A "telephone line" is not VOIP. A "telephone line" is not digital per se. The DACT is digital, but the line it connected to is not.

Yes, there is a digtial converter on copper lines, but its not over the internet, its switched through the PTSN.

Oh, and I cannot find it, but firelite has a paper out stating their FACP's are not listed for use with VOIP.
 
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