Main in a Sub Panel

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A/A Fuel GTX

A/A Fuel GTX

Senior Member
Location
WI & AZ
Occupation
Electrician
I was at a CE class today and the instructor stated that a sub panel in the same structure as the main that was feeding it needed a main breaker. He couldn't give a code reference but stated that a main lug panel would be a violation. I say he's wrong unless something changed.
 
A/A Fuel GTX said:
I was at a CE class today and the instructor stated that a sub panel in the same structure as the main that was feeding it needed a main breaker. He couldn't give a code reference but stated that a main lug panel would be a violation. I say he's wrong unless something changed.
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I am with you, unless there is a change in the 2011 he is wrong.

Gotta love the CE classes, at one of mine the instructor insisted die cast fittings are not UL listed for grounding. I broke out the white book abut he would not look.
 
He is confusing a separate structure sub panel with a sub panel in the same structure. He is, imo, incorrect but we all know that.
 
Never been to one of those classes. Passed my master (and mind you, I'm not sure how hard or easy is/was to pass a master test first time around in other cities, but mine was pretty hard) with 93%. Maybe if I was I might've failed:)

iwire said:
I am with you, unless there is a change in the 2011 he is wrong.

Gotta love the CE classes, at one of mine the instructor insisted die cast fittings are not UL listed for grounding. I broke out the white book abut he would not look.
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I guess it proves that nobody knows it all. Here in WI, we need 24 CEU's every three years to keep our license current.
 
Maybe I have been lucky. All the CE classes I have ever been to if the instructor were to make a statement that you must do something they always have the code section to back up their statement.

If this came from a Q & A portion of the class they may answer to the best of their knowledge but usually will not make such a statement if they are not absolutely certain. Many of them will get out their code book and go through with the whole class their search for the right answer.

I have even seen them leave a question unanswered and after coming back from a break they took some time to find the right answer and then shared it with the class - with a code section to back up their answer.
 
With a statement like that I would question his qualifications to teaching. Has he ever even been an electrician or been on a job site ? Make him feel real smart and ask him where we can use a main lug panel.
 
As an instructor of ce classes you never say anything code related you can't back up. There is always a chance someone will challange you and you lose all credibility if you can't support your claims.
 
RICK NAPIER said:
As an instructor of ce classes you never say anything code related you can't back up. There is always a chance someone will challange you and you lose all credibility if you can't support your claims.
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Yes and hopefully at the end of the day the men walk away feeling like they learned something for the money.
 
RICK NAPIER said:
As an instructor of ce classes you never say anything code related you can't back up. There is always a chance someone will challange you and you lose all credibility if you can't support your claims.
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Jim W in Tampa said:
Yes and hopefully at the end of the day the men walk away feeling like they learned something for the money.
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Most of the instructors I have ever had would like the challenge of the question but will not give you an answer they have not had some time to research for an answer.

At the beginning of their classes they also give you disclaimers that information given in their class is their opinion and should not be considered any kind of official interpretation for NFPA or any AHJ.

Many CE instructors I have had are inspectors and tell us right away that anything they say during the class has in no way any direct support of their employer that they inspect for, but is just their opinion.
 
kwired said:
Most of the instructors I have ever had would like the challenge of the question but will not give you an answer they have not had some time to research for an answer.

At the beginning of their classes they also give you disclaimers that information given in their class is their opinion and should not be considered any kind of official interpretation for NFPA or any AHJ.

Many CE instructors I have had are inspectors and tell us right away that anything they say during the class has in no way any direct support of their employer that they inspect for, but is just their opinion.
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That is a fantastic way to do business. I pay you for wrong instructions. Something wrong about that. I don't exspect them have all the answers to questions they did not plan to be asked but they need to be accurate on what they planned to cover.
 
The instructor was actually an employee of a local POCO and the topic of the class was farm wiring. He was totally competant on Art. 547. Although I knew he was incorrect on the need for a main breaker, I've been searching for the code reference to prove it but can't seem to find it. I'm sure one of you will chime in............
 
A/A Fuel GTX said:
The instructor was actually an employee of a local POCO and the topic of the class was farm wiring.
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Those who think they know everything are really obnoxious to those of us who do. :cool:

Back when I was a helper and in night school, a POCO employee substituted for class one week. A dimmer was mentioned, and he said it was just a variable resistor.

Of course, I corrected him, and he blasted me. The next night, I showed him a dimmer I opened, pointed out the triac, and told him how big a 600w resistor would be.

He was totally competant on Art. 547. Although I knew he was incorrect on the need for a main breaker, I've been searching for the code reference to prove it but can't seem to find it. I'm sure one of you will chime in............
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Ding, dong! Show him the locations where MB's are required, and that within the same building isn't one of them. That it isn't in the NEC is the proof.
 
LarryFine said:
Show him the locations where MB's are required.
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That is a very short list. A MB is never required! Not nowhere; not nohow. You can use an MLO panel anywhere and everywhere you want.

That said, you do have to be able to turn off all power to any given panel. Also, if this is the first panel in a building, you need to be able to turn off all power to the building. But in neither instance is an MB the only way to do that job.
 
Okay, a main disconnect.


charlie b said:
A MB is never required! Not nowhere; not nohow.
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images
 
I wondered if anyone would catch my allusion to the Wizard of Oz. Well done. ;)

Actually, my comment was really directed to the OP. I can say that the instructor is wrong in declaring an MB is needed in a panel in this type of installation, on the basis that an MB is never required.
 
I think Larry knows every saying in every movie ever put on the screen. I have a feeling he is like Very Special Agent Anthony Denozzo on NCIS. ;)
 
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