Was this Neutral Splice ever allowed?

[480sparky]

I am not sure where you think there are paralleled conductors here. Maybe I am missing something obvious in the photo.

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[Dennis Alwon]

I don't know of another code that explicitly prohibits the connection of neutral after the load from different circuits other than the fact that they would be parallel.

One could also argue that by connecting two neutrals from a different circuit that the conductors of the same circuit are not contained in the same raceway, etc. 300.3(B). When you parallel the neutral current will take all paths, as you well know.

BTW, I disagree with the argument about paralleling that you referenced. In fact, I think someone made a proposal to change it and it got rejected because the cmp thought it was clear-- I think....

 

[al hildenbrand]

One could also argue that by connecting two neutrals from a different circuit that the conductors of the same circuit are not contained in the same raceway, etc. 300.3(B). When you parallel the neutral current will take all paths, as you well know.

The neutral bar in the photo can't be bonded to the EGC as shown. I'll be removing the bond. Removing that EGC/Grounded Conductor bond contains the neutral current on the insulated white conductors, which are all in the same raceway. From the old panel JBox to the Service center, all the conductors of multiple circuits are in a single common raceway.

BTW, I disagree with the argument about paralleling that you referenced. In fact, I think someone made a proposal to change it and it got rejected because the cmp thought it was clear-- I think....

So you're saying your opinion is that the Parallel Conductor Rule prohibits paralleling conductors smaller than 1/0?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Yes I am saying that 1/0 and larger is allowed to be parallel not smaller than 1/0. I don't understand how this is argued but that is neither here nor there.

I understand they are all in the same raceway so you are good there but you cannot connect them together. Is it a big deal to just use wirenuts? Also wouldn't the neutrals need to be paired with their respective ungrounded conductor?

 

[hurk27]

Also wouldn't the neutrals need to be paired with their respective ungrounded conductor?

maybe the right sized grounded conductor but why would it matter which #14 neutral went with which or which #12 went with which? they all return to the same buss from this point

only after this point does it make a difference once the circuits split up

 

[al hildenbrand]

Is it a big deal to just use wirenuts? Also wouldn't the neutrals need to be paired with their respective ungrounded conductor?

Thanks for the clarification, Dennis.

I'm trying to minimize the cost to my client by not fixing more than the minimum. And, back then, there was no requirement to group conductors related to a given neutral, but now we have to.

This was a novel labor savings, I'd never seen the like before. And when I thought about it, I realized I wasn't sure what would prevent it. I appreciate all the help here in this thread.

Thanks.

 

[petersonra]

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isn't the new neutral in the same raceway as the hots that it is associated with?

Does the code prohibit using a single larger neutral for part of the circuit as long as it is run with the hots? i don't see where it says that.

 

[petersonra]

How are there any paralleled conductors here?

 

[LarryFine]

How are there any paralleled conductors here?

That eliminates the parallel issue, but I still think the best fix is to form as many 3-wire MWBC's as you can using those new white wires. I count five, which gives you neutrals for 10 circuits.

If you need more than that, you can probably rewire existing conductors. I'd prefer doing that over replacing the white wires with one larger one anyway, from a pure labor standpoint.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

How are there any paralleled conductors here?

That install will not be legal in 2011.

Article 200.4 Neutral Conductors

200.4 Neutral Conductors. Neutral conductors shall not be used for more than one branch circuit, for more than one multiwire branch circuit, or for more than one set of ungrounded feeder conductors unless specifically permitted elsewhere in this Code.

 

[petersonra]

That install will not be legal in 2011.

Article 200.4 Neutral Conductors

What is the thinking on this one? No way this is a safety issue.
was someone making neutrals larger to get around the CCC restrictions or something?

 

[480sparky]

isn't the new neutral in the same raceway as the hots that it is associated with?

That's not the issue. The issue is all these neutrals are now tied together en masse, and using all the new neutrals feeding this panel in parallel.