Gutter size question?

[idahodisco]

Gutter size question? I have three under ground existing 4" conduits and on the one line it request a gutter and then I can come out of the top of the gutter with two 4'' pips to feed the new panel.
314.28 its says for a strait pull 8x the largest pip size so 8 x 4'' =32 and for my cross section 6x so 6 x 4'' =24 + 4'' +4'' = 32
So I need a 32x32 gutter?
pretty big for just a strait pull please tell me I am wrong!

 

[idahodisco]

help

help

Just going to clean that up...
I have three 4'' pipes stubbed up just above the floor that will need to go in a gutter and out of the top of the gutter two 4'' pipes go into the bottom of a panel.
So three in bottom and two out the top! What size gutter will I need? 32x32

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Are you splicing in this wireway? It seems so.

 

[idahodisco]

No just pulling strait through to feed a panel.

 

[Cow]

Going at this a different way, is it possible to just run the two 4" conduits directly into the panel and just cap the third? Why do they all need to hit a gutter?

Looking at 314.28, it looks like you'd need a minimum of a 32" tall box/gutter/etc, but nothing says it has to be 32" deep. You're depth can be 8" or so if you like.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

In my opinion for straight pull you only need to worry about the distance where the pipes enter and exit. Thus the wireway only needs to be as wide as what the pipes need but will need to be 32" tall.

 

[idahodisco]

Going at this a different way, is it possible to just run the two 4" conduits directly into the panel and just cap the third? Why do they all need to hit a gutter?

Looking at 314.28, it looks like you'd need a minimum of a 32" tall box/gutter/etc, but nothing says it has to be 32" deep. You're depth can be 8" or so if you like.

They want the third 4'' connected for future use and my panel must be 6ft max to top leaves me no room for connectors so my real problem is hight!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

They want the third 4'' connected for future use and my panel must be 6ft max to top leaves me no room for connectors so my real problem is hight!

Why not cap the 3rd pipe and use lb's - if they would work. You could just come out the back of the wireway directly into the panel.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Something like this

 

[idahodisco]

Why not cap the 3rd pipe and use lb's - if they would work. You could just come out the back of the wireway directly into the panel.

I smell what your steping in but its all on one wall and I have to stack gutter then panel on top! O and they missed the wall the 4'' pipes are about 18'' of the wall....

 

[idahodisco]

I smell what your steping in but its all on one wall and I have to stack gutter then panel on top! O and they missed the wall the 4'' pipes are about 18'' of the wall....

O one more thing its parallel each pip will have 4 -500kcm and 1- #2 gr so they must be the same lenght...... LB would screw me even more one would be longer!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

so why do you need the wireway at all?

 

[idahodisco]

so why do you need the wireway at all?

They have it on the one line and request connecting all three 4'' pipes to the wireway!

 

[augie47]

There is NEC debate about that dimmension on a wireway.
Whereas we normally look a sizing a j box we follow the rules of 314.28(A)(1), the 8(X) rule.
When you go to a wireway the Code states:
"(B) Metallic Wireways Used as Pull Boxes. Where insulated conductors 4 AWG or larger are pulled through a wireway, the distance between raceway and cable entries enclosing the same conductor shall not be less than that required by 314.28(A)(1) for straight pulls and 314.28(A)(2) for angle pulls. "
Note the wording "distance between raceways". To many, this means the 8X rule only appllies to the distance between your raceway openings so your 4" conduit enter the wireway would need to be 32" away from the 4" leaving.

376 goes on to state:
(A) Deflected Insulated Conductors. Where insulated conductors are deflected within a metallic wireway, either at the ends or where conduits, fittings, or other raceways or cables enter or leave the metallic wireway, or where the direction of the metallic wireway is deflected greater than 30 degrees, dimensions corresponding to one wire per terminal in Table 312.6(A) shall apply.
so, by that, the width of your gutter would only need to be 6". (Ignoring raceway "fill" calculation as I don't think anyone pulling 500 would use only a 6" wide raceway)

Not all AHJ's see it that way. Possibly as it seems illogical than one needs a 32" +
(you need tio add for number of pipes) junction box but only a 4 ft long 6" wide wireway for the same pull). So I would run it by your local inspector.

 

[RUWired]

O and they missed the wall the 4'' pipes are about 18'' of the wall....

If the stub ups are 18" off the wall, you won't be able to stack the panel on top of the stubs anyway unless the depth of the panel is deep enough so that there is less than 6" of pipe or wireway in front of it.

If you can't shift to panelboard to either side, you only have a few choices to fix the problem.

Rick

 

[Cow]

If the stub ups are 18" off the wall, you won't be able to stack the panel on top of the stubs anyway unless the depth of the panel is deep enough so that there is less than 6" of pipe or wireway in front of it.

If you can't shift to panelboard to either side, you only have a few choices to fix the problem.

Rick

I agree. If he's not going to cut concrete and shift them back towards the wall, then he needs to build a stanchion out of strut, square tubing, etc and set the panels and gutter away from the wall so they're right on top of the conduits. Having a gutterconduits stick out 18-24" in front of the bottom of a panel is a surefire way to fail inspection.

 

[idahodisco]

Thanks guys all good ideas I like the strut idea but I am going to request the gutter to be deleted it violates Electrical Code! 312.6(A) and 314.28(A)(1).