I want to punch something

[nhfire77]

I have been the lead adviser for a fire alarm upgrade for a 150 unit apartment complex. The system has been abused and neglected since the day it was put in over 25 years ago. Its a conventional panel no longer in production. There is a false alarm every week or two, sometimes there is no zone in alarm, the panel is just in general alarm. Among a few other critical things.

The client is private real estate equity firm. Their director of maintenance and operations asks for a conference call of the general manager, salesmen and I. He wants to know why the fire alarm needs to be replaced. This is a very normal request, and understandable since we are looking at $25,000+ dollars.

After going over the specifics, he informs us that he has spent time on the phone with the fire alarm manufacturer, they assured him the 25 year old panel has NOT reached the end of its life yet, and that its almost impossible to have a problem, short of lightning hitting it.
(oh I see you have special glasses that can see those kinds of things )

Now, if, the system was properly installed and maintained, there is still a slim chance that is true. But, it wasn't and it isn't. I calmly explain this. He then proceeds to quote prices on Ebay for used parts for the system. I calmly tell him we don't buy from Ebay, but would gladly use the parts with the understanding that we will warranty nothing we touch with used parts....from ebay. (only because I was told to by the boss)

He tells us that his job is to not spend money, because they won't own the property for too long and would rather pass the buck down the road. OK, reasonable response, except it's a life safety issue now. His retort was, well that's just your opinion that the fire alarm is in need of replacement.

Now, I wonder why are we having a 90 minute conversation, when my opinion doesn't matter? I am the only one with any in depth technical knowledge, license or certification talking to him about this.

Then he tells me he doesn't want to spend any money because he is sure that "soon the federal government will mandate all fire alarms of a certain age to be replaced with a current code compliant system, you know they can do it." It was said half kidding and half serious. "That's what the economy needs" he blurts out as if to blame the current political climate.

Why is politics involved??? I don't get it

I left the conversation after that, couldn't take it.

Does this sound familiar to anyone here? Do decision makers at large firms sound like this to you on the other end of the phone?

 

[augie47]

"don't bother me with facts ! My mind is made up"

 

[LarryFine]

After going over the specifics, he informs us that he has spent time on the phone with the fire alarm manufacturer, they assured him the 25 year old panel has NOT reached the end of its life yet, and that its almost impossible to have a problem, short of lightning hitting it.

That's fine. Tell them you'll be happy to follow the manufacturer's advice and let him call the shots, as long as you get paid (well) for your work and every callback.

Also, let the customer know he's responsible for getting reimbursed for your warranty calls, for which you will be billing him directly

 

[cadpoint]

One could have saved 90 minutes to state that you wanted one more party on the line!

Some times there is a moment that you(OK all of us wish) wish you weren't a part of....this was one of them...

It's business and your a consult, address your business activity accordingly...

GJMHo

 

[Cow]

I would've asked him "how's the condition of your own homes fire system?"

Then I would've wished him and his family a good nights sleep.

 

[CopperTone]

My bottom line answer to shenanigan talk like this is the following:

"Well sir, if some day god forbid your building burns to the ground and someone dies - guess who your company and everyone else in that building will sue? our company! It doesn't matter if we had anything to do with the fire. We put our hands on the system. We are the licensed professionals, we are the ones who know the proper way to install and diagnose this equipment. We would probably be found guilty in some way. So, with that being said, we don't install used parts from ebay and jury rig up life safety systems. Our professional recommendation is the following ....... and the price is ...... we would be happy to do this work for you. Sign here please and here are our terms and gaurantee. "

I am surprised you sat there for an hour and a half wasting your time - I would have walked out after 20 minutes.

You should ruin your company and reputation to save someone else a buck? what? if you are going to assume all the risk, you should be making most of the money.

As far as being the "lead adviser" for your client - sometimes all you can do is "professionally advise them" just be sure you document your recommendations to protect yourself.

I used to work for an EC and we always joked that "he used to bend over to pick up a nickel and a $20 would fall out of his top pocket" sometimes you can't get through to anyone regarding money matters - sometimes people can't see the big picture. Sometimes people are just too cheap!

 

[GUNNING]

Go with the flow and get it in writing.

Go with the flow and get it in writing.

It sounds like an opportunity. Just keep making the repairs, tell them not with there parts, and charge the crud out of them.
I call this pricing out the job. The emphasis is on OUT, as in out the door, or out of this world.
Start slow and move the petty numbers up. Service callback for trouble light. Service callback for open resister. Service callback for power outage, need new battery back up cause batteries swollen. New batteries wont carry 90 minute load, need replacements. Battery case rotted on bottom, wont hold batteries need new case. Batteries stolen, need new lock on case. Service callback to re-certify system after false alarm. He will WISH he has a new system when the quarters over.
Have the fire marshal over and ask what he thinks ask about false alarm charges or dis-functional fire alarm systems. OK that might be over the line but....

The owner has a right to not put a new system in, they look at dollars and sense and maybe they are just not making enough for bonuses and a new system.Or maybe the accountant said no way do you want to invest in a new system. They must have a sweetheart deal with there fire insurer.
Did he say lightning strike? hmmmm.
:roll:
Or just go with the flow, thats how you get promoted. Its fun to think about though.

 

[MichaelGP3]

.....
After going over the specifics, he informs us that he has spent time on the phone with the fire alarm manufacturer, they assured him the 25 year old panel has NOT reached the end of its life yet, and that its almost impossible to have a problem, short of lightning hitting it.
.....

This would have been a great opportunity to include the FACP's manufacturer on the conference call...

 

[sameguy]

Get with your FA supplyer and see if you can inter-connect with the system and replace with new stuff; and leave the old on line out putting to new controler or the other way.
I love it when they know more than we do, like the guy I did a walk through his 3phase 8 meter service was flooded needs complete replacement but " it is an easy job just cut in here splice there done!"; I'm waiting 3days just to talk to POCO eng.

 

[nhfire77]

This would have been a great opportunity to include the FACP's manufacturer on the conference call...

They gave the client names and numbers of their dealers, saying they can fix it. Screw them. It would have been interesting to actually here what they said.

I think I figured it out, facts are now debatable. Why have we as a society allowed actual facts to be debatable. Not theory, but facts. If 99 out of 100 of us agree, it's a fact. I'm not talking about concepts, if it's broken, it's broken!!!!!!!!!!


Thanks for your thoughts, the irrational exuberance is overwhelming to me.

 

[nhfire77]

Get with your FA supplyer and see if you can inter-connect with the system and replace with new stuff; and leave the old on line out putting to new controler or the other way.
I love it when they know more than we do, like the guy I did a walk through his 3phase 8 meter service was flooded needs complete replacement but " it is an easy job just cut in here splice there done!"; I'm waiting 3days just to talk to POCO eng.

Of course we can, but that would cost money. It would have to be moved when it got replaced entirely. They don't want to spend thousands, only hundreds, on a huge problem. The last test report showed only minimal problems. The company that did it is sloppy. They left out a whole bunch of issues that is required to be documented. They were going to call them and get their opinion. That company lost the account because the property manager realized they were chumps. Now the big boss is shopping to find someone to tell him it's fine.

I'm not going to cave. I think I need to go work for a bigger outfit that only does healthcare facilities, seems like there is less debate on what is safe for healthcare.

 

[growler]

I have been the lead adviser for a fire alarm upgrade for a 150 unit apartment complex.

Does this sound familiar to anyone here? Do decision makers at large firms sound like this to you on the other end of the phone?

When you talk about an apartment complex this sound like "standard operating proceedure" to me. Over the years I have been asked by management to do all sorts of things that I didn't feel comforatable with and I just didn't do them.

It's really a bad situation with investment property. The people that you deal with are never really the owners and have no personal investment or responsibility. The corporate owners hire managers and then put the pressure on to keep cost down and they really do pass the buck to the next owner.

This is the problem with corporate ownership, it's hard to nail down the real decision maker if there is ever and injury or death. It comes down to how much risk the company doing the work is willing to take.

 

[stevenje]

There is nothing worse than talking to a bean counter who tries to wear a tool belt.

 

[renosteinke]

It's hard ... but you need to park your ego.

Not that having pride and confidence is a bad thing ... it's just that some folks think they can substitute substance with sizzle.

You give them you opinion. Maybe explain the path that led you down that trail. Once they start taking that stroll down fantasy lane, your only option is to reply as Don Corleone did as he closed his meeting with Silazzo:

"This is bad business and will lead to the ruin of us all. We cannot participate at this time. We wish you success in your venture."

You've given them your professional judgement. They prefer to listen to their unqualified guy. Someone else has a better answer? Well, good luck to them! If you're right, they'll be back.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I told someone yesterday, that we need to get back to the point where we realize that not spending money is not going to fix it.

Don't pay for it now and then when you have a disaster you'll be really surprised how much the families of the victims thinks that a human life is worth.

 

[nhfire77]

I've been working around investment properties for a while and most don't even think twice about life safety. Not that they don't get a second opinion on occasion. No one is perfect. But 9/10 times they ask us (not us telling them) what to do and it gets dealt with. This Mickey mouse crap is horrifying to me. Not fixing parking lot lights that have been plow damaged, or fixing broken outlets maintenance items that are not life safety is one thing. Actively ignoring safety is stupid.

As for my ego, I understand it may have sounded a bit arrogant. It's not that someone is doubting me, it's the negligence that bothers me.

 

[nhfire77]

we realize that not spending money is not going to fix it..

love that. Im using it.

 

[iwire]

If it is an old hardwired zone system I bet it could be made serviceable again.

If you pull all the field wiring and install jumpers or EOLs right at the panel will it clear?

I understand the desire to 'do it right' but it is not your money to spend and I really think you are playing the 'life safety card' kind of strong here. (JMPO)

If they want to just keep what they have, and keep paying you to mess with it and keep paying for false alarms that is their choice, smile and laugh all the way to the bank.

 

[nhfire77]

If it is an old hardwired zone system I bet it could be made serviceable again.

If you pull all the field wiring and install jumpers or EOLs right at the panel will it clear?


If they want to just keep what they have, and keep paying you to mess with it and keep paying for false alarms that is their choice, smile and laugh all the way to the bank.

The panel is clear. The false alarms are not coming in on a zone, the panel is in alarm, but not any individual zone.

The other day every zone was in trouble, the tech has to cycle power for it to clear.

I am selling the life safety card. This property burns up a unit (or whole building) every year. It's not building issue, it's the tennants. But the history tells me they need reliable fire detection. My posts may have come across like an alarmist, I was just venting, I'm not spewing fear to the client. Could we fix it? If we could determine the causes, of course. They don't want to spend the cash. We'll keep sending techs to evaluate false alarms. Iwire, I cannot post pics of the panel, but you would under stand why I feel this way. I know you have dealt with your fair share of rats nets too.

 

[petersonra]

One of the issues with this kind of problem is that we see it as a technical problem that can ultimately only be fixed by being replaced. and that is probably true, at least in the longer run.

The guy footing the bills has limited funds available and has to prioritize where he spends his money. It is his job to stay solvent, not always an easy task, especially these days.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with used parts. The whole thing is a collection of 25 YO used parts. How is replacing parts that do not work at all currently, with used parts that work do anything other than improve the current situation?

I understand that these kind of parts are a huge margin builder for a lot of alarm companies, and not being able to include them in the job reduces your net margin, and you have to stay solvent too.

It is a nontrivial exercise in balancing the resources available with the needs and wants of the customer and yourself.