What's Wrong with this Picture?

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Little Bill

Little Bill

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105.jpg
[/IMG]

Look at the 2nd DP breaker on the right side and the SP right under it. See anything wrong?

There is a 10-2 NM cable that one conductor, the black, is landed on one pole of the 30A DP, and the white is landed on the 20A SP. There is no conductor landed on the other pole of the DP. Guess they thought this would give them 50A protection!:roll:
There are other violations here but this was the oddest.
 
H

hurk27

Senior Member
Location
Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
While for some reason I have seen this photo before, but to answer you question, I agree this is what it looks like and if this is true then the bottom single pole next down also looks like both the neutral and hot are landed on the breaker, but I know there is a neutral bar on that side, But to really answer the question of whats wrong with this picture, there is allot!!!

1. The panel is a sub panel with main lugs.
2. It is fed by a 3 conductor SE cable.
3. No seperation of grounds and neutrals.
4. Single pole breaker on the bottom right not only has two wire under a lug (ITE doesn't allow two wire on a breaker) but also has lamp cord from it? could be a 2 wire non-EGC UF just not sure.
5. Can't see from this photo but as is doesn't look like there is any bond to the panel can.
 
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Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

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Bill once you run a 4 wire cable to that panel just pull the bar across the bottom off and put egc'c on one side and neutral on the other.
 
Little Bill

Little Bill

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hurk27 said:
While for some reason I have seen this photo before, but to answer you question, I agree this is what it looks like and if this is true then the bottom single pole next down also looks like both the neutral and hot are landed on the breaker, but I know there is a neutral bar on that side, But to really answer the question of whats wrong with this picture, there is allot!!!

1. The panel is a sub panel with main lugs.
2. It is fed by a 3 conductor SE cable.
3. No seperation of grounds and neutrals.
4. Single pole breaker on the bottom right not only has two wire under a lug (ITE doesn't allow two wire on a breaker) but also has lamp cord from it? could be a 2 wire non-EGC UF just not sure.
5. Can't see from this photo but as is doesn't look like there is any bond to the panel can.
Click to expand...

Your right Hurk, You have seen this before. I should have said that. I posted this in a previous post titled "What would the inspector say" I was only allowed a quick look at this the first time since the customer hadn't taken possession of the house then. I'm seeing alot since they now own it and I'm allowed into it. There is a neutral bar on the right side that the wire you saw does land on it. The part in red above, the double wire is on the left side, and yes it is lamp cord. Also the top DP on the right was being used as a SP, only one conductor. Good eyes Hurk! :cool:


Dennis Alwon said:
Bill once you run a 4 wire cable to that panel just pull the bar across the bottom off and put egc'c on one side and neutral on the other.
Click to expand...

The panel is now no more. I have disconnected everything, removed all unnecessary wiring and am in the process of replacing it and running SER to it.
Thanks Dennis:):cool:
 
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hillbilly1

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North Georgia mountains
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Owner/electrical contractor
Dennis Alwon said:
Bill once you run a 4 wire cable to that panel just pull the bar across the bottom off and put egc'c on one side and neutral on the other.
Click to expand...

I have had inspectors require the metal bar replaced with a plastic one, they would not accept just removing the bar. Siemens has a replacement piece for that.
 
cowboyjwc

cowboyjwc

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Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Little Bill said:
105.jpg
[/IMG]

Look at the 2nd DP breaker on the right side and the SP right under it. See anything wrong?

There is a 10-2 NM cable that one conductor, the black, is landed on one pole of the 30A DP, and the white is landed on the 20A SP. There is no conductor landed on the other pole of the DP. Guess they thought this would give them 50A protection!:roll:
There are other violations here but this was the oddest.
Click to expand...

Wheww, for a minute I was worried that was all you saw.:)
 
LarryFine

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
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Henrico County, VA
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Electrical Contractor
btharmy said:
According to the Siemens rep I spoke with, removing the "tie bar" without replacing it with the plastic one voids its UL listing. It is required to have one or the other.
Click to expand...
Of course. :roll: And the cost of the plastic bar is?
 
H

hurk27

Senior Member
Location
Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
If I remember right (haven't used Siemens in a few years) removing the bar allows the buss to slide out and putting screws back in is the only way to keep then in place, or just use the wire like some do.:roll:

Although the side with the bond strap to the can, can't slide, I have just used washers to hold then in place before.
 
Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

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Chapel Hill, NC
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Retired Electrical Contractor
Ge is basically the same setup. I have never used the bar and I have not noticed any movement. The ground screw will, of course, add rigidity to the bar also.
 
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