Would an industrial plant that generates its own power fall under the NEC?

[Eddy Current]

Would an industrial plant that generates its own power fall under the NEC?

 

[Rich Elec.]

Is this industrial plant is utility owned and operated?
If yes, take a look at 90.2 (B)(5)(c).
Even though utility generation stations are not covered under the NEC, it is still the standard by which we install our work. I don't buy the "we can do what ever we want because this place is not covered" argument that can often be expressed.

 

[tryinghard]

I believe so because there is definition to "what is a utility", notice the information note of 90.2(B)

 

[ptonsparky]

In NE, if the plant has no utility connection whatsoever, then they could very well not be required to be inspected. That does not relieve them of following the currently adopted NEC. Farms are not required to be inspected here but kiss my rear goodbye if something goes wrong.

 

[jim dungar]

There is no blanket "the NEC does not ever apply to utilities" provision. Although I admit, many people including AHJs seem to think one does.
Unless it deals directly with revenue production (i.e. generation, transmission, and distribution) utility facilities should be covered under the NEC. So the fact that some

 

[tryinghard]

The NEC needs to be the lowest limit of installation in powerhouses and such. Grounding and bonding gets tricky though but these sites should use EE's closely with electricians, linemen, & technicians.

 

[Eddy Current]

Well it does have its own inspectors, nothing state so im guessing yes.

 

[tryinghard]

Cite issues from the NEC and if they reply it is not used here inquire if what they are using meets or exceeds your specific NEC citing. Tell them the reason your using the NEC is for its purpose and longevity as such, ?purpose of [NEC] is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity? (90.1(A)), and the NEC has been doing such for over 125 years ? ?why ignore or not use it??

 

[Eddy Current]

Cite issues from the NEC and if they reply it is not used here inquire if what they are using meets or exceeds your specific NEC citing. Tell them the reason your using the NEC is for its purpose and longevity as such, ?purpose of [NEC] is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity? (90.1(A)), and the NEC has been doing such for over 125 years ? ?why ignore or not use it??

They still use the NEC as a standard and even go above and beyond it in some cases. Some of the people that wrote the 2008 Code Book work there.

 

[Bullcub145]

I often tell people this, "If someone gets hurt here, and OSHA shows up, do you really think they are gonna say 'Oh, well since you generate your own power the NEC doesn't apply to you, so we will just let that slide.'"? I don't think so.

 

[Eddy Current]

I often tell people this, "If someone gets hurt here, and OSHA shows up, do you really think they are gonna say 'Oh, well since you generate your own power the NEC doesn't apply to you, so we will just let that slide.'"? I don't think so.

Yeah you would think something like a major industrial plant big enough to have to generate its own power would definitely be covered.

 

[stevebea]

Is this industrial plant is utility owned and operated?
If yes, take a look at 90.2 (B)(5)(c).
Even though utility generation stations are not covered under the NEC, it is still the standard by which we install our work. I don't buy the "we can do what ever we want because this place is not covered" argument that can often be expressed.

Utilities are regulated by government agencies or commissions.

 

[K8MHZ]

There is no blanket "the NEC does not ever apply to utilities" provision. Although I admit, many people including AHJs seem to think one does.
Unless it deals directly with revenue production (i.e. generation, transmission, and distribution) utility facilities should be covered under the NEC. So the fact that some

I was taught that the NEC exemption only applied to the part of the plant directly involved with generation. Offices, bathrooms, meeting rooms, etc., were under the scope of the NEC, according to my training and experience working at and on power plants.

 

[renosteinke]

Let's stop pretending to be lawyers, and check our responses to reality.

As two real-world examples can illustrate:
In northern California, an Alcoa plant generates enough power that it's actually capable of supplimenting the grid; this became a political dispute back during the Enron/Gray Davis 'energy crisis.'

Every PoCo generating plant I've seen has ordinary receptacles, lighting, etc.

The moral is: Look to Article 90 for the 'scope' of the NEC. The NEC clearly recognizes that not only are there limits to its' scope, but that many of its' provisions can actually create hazards in different applications. That's why these other areas go by different rules.

IMO, the NEC doesn't really apply to anything over 600V. For those higher-voltage areas, there's a different set of rules, known as the NESC.

You can't escape 'intellegent application' of various codes. That point is emphasised, again, by Article 90, where we are reminded that the NEC is not an instruction book and not a design manual.

 

[iwire]

The moral is: Look to Article 90 for the 'scope' of the NEC. The NEC clearly recognizes that not only are there limits to its' scope, but that many of its' provisions can actually create hazards in different applications. That's why these other areas go by different rules.

Please provide an example of the NEC rules creating a hazard?

IMO, the NEC doesn't really apply to anything over 600V. For those higher-voltage areas, there's a different set of rules, known as the NESC.

The NEC most certainly does apply above 600 volts in any location that is not excluded by the scope. That is why there are sections of the NEC specifically addressing oer 600 volts.

Now currently the NEC does not do a great job with everything above 600 volts and I have heard they will be addressing that.

You can't escape 'intellegent application' of various codes. That point is emphasised, again, by Article 90, where we are reminded that the NEC is not an instruction book and not a design manual.

No it is not an design manual but if adopted by an area without amendments it certainly applies to large industrial installations.

 

[renosteinke]

NEC creating a hazard? Well, there is the matter of applying NEC grounding rules in a coal mine ... a great way to create a 'spark factory.' Hence, mines have their own MSHA code. Not really on point with this thread, but there you have it.

I did say 'doesn't really apply' because, for the most part, once you get over 600 volts you're out of the scope of the NEC, and into the PoCo distribution system. There, NESC rules apply. One might as soon argue for the application of NESC rules in our homes. In any event, when I use an imprecise form of speach, there's a reason. Hence, the use of 'really.'

Sure, there are plenty of instances where industrial equipment can exceed 600 volts. The issue here is not, strictly speaking, the size of the plant or the voltage in use. Rather, as I see it, it's a distinction between the 'producing' and 'consuming' side of the distribution system.

When there's a formal 'power company,' it's easy to see the meter as the dividing point. When a place is creating its' own power, the dividing point(s) are not so clear - but it is clear that the NEC is not appropriate for the generating facilities.

We see some of this when we dig deeper into 'alternative power.' Generators, windmills, photocells, battery banks .... all introduce these issues, and that's part of the reason we have so much code uncertainty on those topics.

Another distinction between the "PoCo" and the "user" that is also relevant is the definition of the AHJ. Your local building department is not, by definition, competent to regulate or inspect power generation facilities. Regulated utilities have some statuatory protection of their "AHJ" status- but XYZ Industries will not have that protection. That lack, though, does not suddenly mean that the local building inspector is suddenly competent. In this situation, the "AHJ" defaults to the guy who signed the prints.

To sum it up: I hold that the NEC does not apply to the 'producing' side of a plants' generating facilities. I maintain that the relevant code for that part is the NESC.

 

[jim dungar]

I did say 'doesn't really apply' because, for the most part, once you get over 600 volts you're out of the scope of the NEC, and into the PoCo distribution system.

Aren't you ignoring all of the typical <35kV equipment found in many industrial facilities? Most of this is inside of buildings and so it has a lot more in common with NEC installations than it does an outdoor overhead or underground POCO distribution system.

 

[iwire]

I did say 'doesn't really apply' because, for the most part, once you get over 600 volts you're out of the scope of the NEC, and into the PoCo distribution system.

Again I am not seeing that above 600 volts is out of the scope of the NEC.

I spent 5 years working on a property where we owned all the distribution at 4160 volts. All of it was under the NEC.

We do hospitals and universities where 13.8KV distribution is customer owned and controlled again under the NEC.

I am fully aware of the NESC and where it applies.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

NEC creating a hazard? Well, there is the matter of applying NEC grounding rules in a coal mine ... a great way to create a 'spark factory.' Hence, mines have their own MSHA code...

And if you would look at 90.2(B)(2) you will find that the NEC itself says it does not cover underground mines.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...
To sum it up: I hold that the NEC does not apply to the 'producing' side of a plants' generating facilities. I maintain that the relevant code for that part is the NESC.

Actually it applies to any producing (generating) plant that is not owned or under the exclusive control of an electric utility. With the utilities spinning their generation plants off to non-regulated subsidiaries more and more generating plants are coming under the scope of the NEC. It is my opinion that any generating plant not owned and operated by a "regulated" public utility is with in the scope of the NEC.