Is this compliant? GEC question

Is this compliant? GEC question

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Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

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Chapel Hill, NC
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Retired Electrical Contractor
I have a 400 amp meter/panel combo. I install a 1/0 copper grounding electrode conductor to a water pipe that is considered an electrode. From the water pipe I take a #4 bonding jumper to the CEE (concrete encased electrode). From the CEE I take a #6 bonding jumper to a ground rod.

What do you think? Compliant or not?
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I have a 400 amp meter/panel combo. I install a 1/0 copper grounding electrode conductor to a water pipe that is considered an electrode. From the water pipe I take a #4 bonding jumper to the CEE (concrete encased electrode). From the CEE I take a #6 bonding jumper to a ground rod.

What do you think? Compliant or not?
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Yes, you're required no larger than #4 to the CEE, no larger than #6 to the rod and 1/0 is correct for 500KCM. Better drive the rod close to the water pipe in case it's replaced with plastic.;)
 
I voted no. The #4 is fine to the CEE alone but not for multiple electrodes. You would need to run 1/0 to the CEE if you are going to bond other electrodes to it.
 
It is compliant.

The the GEC to the first grounding electrode has to be continuous and sized according to 250.66 then the bonding jumper to the ground rod doesn't have to be larger than #6 and the bonding jumper to the CCC doesn't have to be larger than #4.
 
curt swartz said:
I voted no. The #4 is fine to the CEE alone but not for multiple electrodes. You would need to run 1/0 to the CEE if you are going to bond other electrodes to it.
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I think you missed that hes going to the water pipe first then to the CEE then to the rod, anytime you daisy chain electrodes you just follow the chain of requirements for the electrode after the last, Now if he were to hit the ground rod first then the CEE second then the water pipe, he would have had to run a 1/0 the whole run, or if he hit the water pipe then the ground rod, then the CEE, he would have had 1/0 to the water pipe then #4 the rest of the way, but the way he stated is perfectly fine, except there is no requirement for the ground rod since he has a CEE.
 
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I would say no because I don't think you could get a non-reversible connection from the water bond to the #4 to the CEE.
 
hurk27 said:
I think you missed that hes going to the water pipe first then to the CEE then to the rod, anytime you daisy chain electrodes you just follow the chain of requirements for the electrode after the last, Now if he were to hit the ground rod first then the CEE second then the water pipe, he would have had to run a 1/0 the whole run, or if he hit the water pipe then the ground rod, then the CEE, he would have had 1/0 to the water pipe then #4 the rest of the way, but the way he stated is perfectly fine, except there is no requirement for the ground rod since he has a CEE.
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I didn't miss anything. I don't feel that the intent of the NEC was to allow the reduced size when connecting to multiple electrodes. Please show me where it is allowed to use the reduced size for daisy chaining electrodes. If the answer was as simple as you say why would the question and poll even be here?
 
Chamuit said:
I would say no because I don't think you could get a non-reversible connection from the water bond to the #4 to the CEE.
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Bonding jumpers do not require an irreversible connection.

1100203955_2.jpg

1100202225_2.jpg
 
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Dennis Alwon said:
Come on Roger-- did I get it right?
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Good morning Dennis, you did get it right and I say it is allowed. The sole connection to the CEE is a #4, the sole connection to the rod is a #6. I can not find (or don't agree with) any wording that implies daisy chaining a GES using the minimum size conductor for each type of GE is not allowed.


Roger
 
Yeah, what Roger said.....

Looking at 250.66(A)&(B) that states "that portion of the conductor that is the sole connection...

Notice it doesn't say "conductor for the sole purpose."
 
curt swartz said:
I voted no. The #4 is fine to the CEE alone but not for multiple electrodes. You would need to run 1/0 to the CEE if you are going to bond other electrodes to it.
Click to expand...

So when we have two rods we run a #6 to the first and a #6 bonding jumper to the second. Correct. Is this the sole connector or do we need a #1/0 to the first?

(A) Connections to Rod, Pipe, or Plate Electrodes. Where the grounding electrode conductor is connected to rod, pipe, or plate electrodes as permitted in 250.52(A)(5) or (A)(7), that portion of the conductor that is the sole connection to the grounding electrode shall not be required to be larger than 6 AWG copper wire or 4 AWG aluminum wire.
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no need for irrevesable splices

no need for irrevesable splices

i think 250-52A1 exception would allow you to tap to other electrodes from water pipe.
 
from an old IAEI mag. article

No sequence for installing the bonding jumper or jumpers is given. However, the minimum wire size required to the various grounding electrodes must be observed. In addition, the point where the grounding electrode connects to the grounding electrode system must provide for the largest required grounding electrode conductor.
For example, it would be a violation to connect a No. 4 bonding conductor from a concrete-encased grounding electrode a building steel grounding electrode which would require a 3/0 grounding electrode conductor. The installation would be acceptable if the 3/0 copper grounding electrode conductor connects to the building steel and a No. 4 copper bonding jumper extends to the concrete-encased electrode. In addition, the unspliced grounding electrode conductor is permitted to run from the service equipment to any convenient grounding electrode.

Alternately, individual grounding electrode conductors are permitted to be installed from the service equipment to one or more grounding electrodes rather than the electrodes being bonded together in a circular or ?daisy-chain? manner.
Click to expand...
 
I have to go now but I will return to let you know what members of the cmp said yesterday at our Raleigh meeting.
 
roger said:
Good morning Dennis, you did get it right and I say it is allowed. The sole connection to the CEE is a #4, the sole connection to the rod is a #6. I can not find (or don't agree with) any wording that implies daisy chaining a GES using the minimum size conductor for each type of GE is not allowed.


Roger
Click to expand...


If installed as described in the OP how is the #4 the sole connection to the CEE when it also has a rod connected to it?
 
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