Overwired panel

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knoppdude

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Sacramento,ca
Have a residential customer with a 200 amp panel, that has way too many circuits filling it, to the point that grounded conductors are being doubled and triple up on the terminal strip. What I am going to suggest to him is that he upsize the service to supply two 200 amp panels, and split up the circuitry. I have to do some load work on his house, but it is in need of more panel space, and this is the only way I can think of to accomplish this. Most of the wiring has been done by a handy man, so there are many problems beyond this, which I will bring to his attention as they are uncovered. Has anyone had experience doubling up on residential panels, and how did it work out?
 
I agree with Dennis. Is a service upgrade even needed? You should do a load calc to find out. Cavie are you talking a 200 amp meter with dual lugs feeding 2 panels?
 
bradleyelectric said:
Are that many circuits even needed or can you splice some of them together?
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That was what I was thinking too. Breakout some wirenuts and make double up some circuits.

Most likely the DIY ran a new homerun each time they added something so they are lightly loaded circuits.
 
Do you have a seperate ground bar? If not, you can add one and get the EGC's off the neutral bar to make more room for the neutrals.

Often times, you can simply clean up a panel by taking all the wires loose and re-running them back to the breakers in an orderly fashion. People add circuits and start criss-crossing over other circuits, etc. They'll take circuits from the bottom of the panel and run them to the topmost breakers and vice versa.
 
knoppdude said:
Have a residential customer with a 200 amp panel, that has way too many circuits filling it, to the point that grounded conductors are being doubled and triple up on the terminal strip. What I am going to suggest to him is that he upsize the service to supply two 200 amp panels, and split up the circuitry. I have to do some load work on his house, but it is in need of more panel space, and this is the only way I can think of to accomplish this. Most of the wiring has been done by a handy man, so there are many problems beyond this, which I will bring to his attention as they are uncovered. Has anyone had experience doubling up on residential panels, and how did it work out?
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Not many houses ever need a 200A service. It's likely that a lot of the circuits are lightly loaded. It seems unlikely that he would need a service upgrade. Maybe rearrange the existing circuits or add another panel.
 
petersonra said:
Not many houses ever need a 200A service. It's likely that a lot of the circuits are lightly loaded. It seems unlikely that he would need a service upgrade. Maybe rearrange the existing circuits or add another panel.
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With that in mind lets looks at what circuits are required for a single family dwelling.

You must have at least 2 SABC
You must have at least 1 20 amp circuit supplying laundry outlet(s)
You must have at least 1 20 amp circuit supplying bathroom outlets - if for some reason there is no bathroom maybe you would not need this circuit.

You would then need circuits for any loads supplying certain equipment such as but not limited to electric ranges, electric clothes dryers, electric water heaters, HVAC equipment.

Anything not mentioned above is not required to be on an individual branch circuit and could all be on a single circuit and still be code compliant. There are outlets required that are not in the items above so you need at least 1 circuit for all other items.

So I am at 5 required branch circuits plus ranges dryers, HVAC, etc. being the minimum number of branch circuits required in any dwelling. May not be good design but is code compliant.

I have often found when coming into an old house and they are having trouble blowing a lot of fuses/breakers if you get these 5 areas plus the other dedicated items on separate branch circuits you eliminate most of the circuit overloading problems. If they had a fuse panel and had 30 amp fuses in every possible spot and you put in a new breaker panel you had better separate into these 5+ items at a minimum or they will be calling you back because they will be frequently tripping breakers.
 
fireryan said:
I agree with Dennis. Is a service upgrade even needed? You should do a load calc to find out. Cavie are you talking a 200 amp meter with dual lugs feeding 2 panels?
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Po stated service upgrade. 400 amp service bouble lugs two 200 amp panels. That kinda service will run a LOT of house.
 
iwire said:
That was what I was thinking too. Breakout some wirenuts and make double up some circuits.

Most likely the DIY ran a new homerun each time they added something so they are lightly loaded circuits.
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Oh it's scarey that I'm thinking like Bob :), and the litely loaded statement on circuits as well.

Now, not that it's available for install but you might consider using a test ACFI and seeing if they hold!
This along will cause you to clear up some potential shared neutrals which surely exist unless they truely ran a circuit every time.

A serious investment might be http://www.tasco-usa.com/CMT24S.htm or the less expensive Ideal 61-954 or the like.
 
I'd go with Dennis on this too.

I'm working on a house that is 5400 under roof / 3600 livable, total electric. My load calcs came out to 206A with the actual loads. (This is mainly because of the workshop that was added.) The engineer with his generalized loads came out to 275A.
 
You left out some information.

How many spaces in your existing panel?



A 20 space 200A panel can be easily changed to a 40 space.

If it's a 40 space, stuffed full, you can add as many panels as you find necessary as long as the load is within the limits.
 
I am going to have to perform load calcs on this house, and if the existing service is adequate, then the sub panel route is going to be the best route. The owner has a large number of industrial grade appliances, so it will be interesting to see. 200 Amps may be adequate, but I don't know yet. The really tough part of this will be tracing down and labeling the circuits. Thanks for the responses.
 
To add more information, I have had to splice new outlets to existing circuits, but the panel is just such a ratnest, that there is not much room left to work with, even with 40 breaker spaces. I think the hardest part of this job will be tracing out the circuits, so I may have to check out some of the tracers mentioned. Thanks to all of you for the responses.
 
If there are only one wire/circuit per breaker then add a ground bar for the many grounds. If the wiring in the panel has excess wire loops (rats nest), trim the wires and neaten it up. If there are no open circuit spaces and you need additional circuits, add a larger panel, or subpanel if allowed and if under amps by your load calc.
 
readydave8 said:
20 minutes? I bet I could do it in 6 hours. 20 minutes to find 90%, 2 hours for the remaining 10%, the remaining is mobilization, drive time, explaining things to customer, billing, etc.
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That seems a little extreme. If you charged me 6 hours to label a panel, that'd be the last job you ever did for me.

What's a service change take based on your scale, 24 hrs?
 
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