Two services on one home

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Part-Time

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Location
Houston, Texas
a guy asked me if a second meter (service) can be put on his garage so he can have a wood shop of some kind. is this possible ?
so he would have 2 complete services one for Home. one for garage (attached)
 
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charlie b

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Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
If the garage is attached to the main dwelling unit, you might have a problem with 230.2. So in addition to the POCO's permission, you might also need the AHJ's permission. If this is a detached garage, then the NEC will allow separate services.
 

Dennis Alwon

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Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
If the garage is attached to the main dwelling unit, you might have a problem with 230.2. So in addition to the POCO's permission, you might also need the AHJ's permission. If this is a detached garage, then the NEC will allow separate services.

Good catch-- I was thinking detached but otherwise you might have a problem
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
Actually, it ought not matter whether the garage is detached or not.

It wasn't all that long ago that many homes had two 'services:' one for the house itself, and a separate meter for the water heater. (Since the 60-amp bases had little space inside, you also saw two separate masts, with a splice in the drip loop of the service drop- so the two systems were completely separate).

I agree that he needs to have a chat with his AHJ. Separate service, possible plumbing .... and the city is likely to wonder if this will someday be converted into an apartment. Or, for that matter, if he's running a business there.

This isn't the forum to debate the virtues of this sort of governmental oversight- but it is something to keep in mind. It's not just the 'NEC' that we need to worry about.
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
This isn't the forum to debate the virtues of this sort of governmental oversight- but it is something to keep in mind. It's not just the 'NEC' that we need to worry about.


Very nice statement...

Considerable substantiation would be required by the building department I work for to give speical permission to install more than one service at a building or structure. The NEC (230.2) identifies several reasons [(A)-(D)] when additional services would be permitted, other than those, you may be hard press to prove why it is needed...
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
a guy asked me if a second meter (service) can be put on his garage so he can have a wood shop of some kind. is this possible ?
so he would have 2 complete services one for Home. one for garage (attached)

There is a provision somewhere in PG&E rates document. Only one meter qualifies for base rate. The second meter gets billed at I believe the highest tier, which is something unbelievable like 35 cents per kWh.

Also, I've seen large rental houses/mini apartments with multiple meters with each tenant having its own metering meaning each "room" has its own service. Other property managers choose to handle billing internally or include it in rent.

If you say you've a tenant and needs separate billing, I don't see why not. If Bob assigns his company as the tenant to his garage and gets the bill under "Bob's Woodshop, LLC". They're considered two different legal persons.
 
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iwire

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Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
a guy asked me if a second meter (service) can be put on his garage so he can have a wood shop of some kind. is this possible ?
so he would have 2 complete services one for Home. one for garage (attached)


First I want to point out that the number of meters has absolutely nothing to do with the number of NEC services the building has.

Now if you really mean a second NEC 'service' I agree with Charlie that if the garage is attached that could be a problem.

Please give us more details about the house, garage and what the goal of the customer is.

Do they really want separate billing for the garage?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
First I want to point out that the number of meters has absolutely nothing to do with the number of NEC services the building has.

Now if you really mean a second NEC 'service' I agree with Charlie that if the garage is attached that could be a problem.

Please give us more details about the house, garage and what the goal of the customer is.

Do they really want separate billing for the garage?

If garage is attached it is not a problem it just creates different installation requirements. You still can only have one service supplying the structure, but can have multiple disconnects that need to be grouped together.

Why noy just upsize the existing dwelling service & just supply the garage

as a sub panel??

Separate metering was the intention in the OP. Likely meaning they wish to receive a separate energy bill from the supplier for whatever reason. If the panel supplying the house is sufficient to supply the house as is, this approach does not gain much as far as the intention of separately metering the garage.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician

david

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
I. General
230.2 Number of Services.
As already pointed out if you mean separate services as in 230.2 you are not given permission in a b or c you could go to the authority with d., if the utility rate will be different. Most likely it will be a commercial rate. FLAG! It has to be inspected, in my area as in a lot of areas these days the electrical inspector works for or in the same office as the building department. He may even be a combo and be a building inspector himself.

Commercial utility rate plus wood shop could equal fire separation, accessible bathroom , accessible parking, egress doors, est. And if you have the public in the wood shop that becomes especially true.
230.40 Number of Service-Entrance Conductor Sets.

Each service drop or lateral shall supply only one set of service-entrance conductors.
You could use exception 2. As other stated but not the way you described the installation, you have to group the service disconnects at one location.

A lot of building departments would not care about a home wood shop on a commercial rate if the area does not involve the public. But a shop with its own metering may raise a flag with your building department. It?s best to check but don?t think your electrical inspector isn?t going to notice even if he doesn?t say anything. Most of the time he will mention it to the building inspector and allow him and the municipality decide.
 

Finite10

Senior Member
Location
Great NW
I. General
230.2 Number of Services.
As already pointed out if you mean separate services as in 230.2 you are not given permission in a b or c you could go to the authority with d., if the utility rate will be different. Most likely it will be a commercial rate. FLAG! It has to be inspected, in my area as in a lot of areas these days the electrical inspector works for or in the same office as the building department. He may even be a combo and be a building inspector himself.

Commercial utility rate plus wood shop could equal fire separation, accessible bathroom , accessible parking, egress doors, est. And if you have the public in the wood shop that becomes especially true.
230.40 Number of Service-Entrance Conductor Sets.

Each service drop or lateral shall supply only one set of service-entrance conductors.
You could use exception 2. As other stated but not the way you described the installation, you have to group the service disconnects at one location.

A lot of building departments would not care about a home wood shop on a commercial rate if the area does not involve the public. But a shop with its own metering may raise a flag with your building department. It?s best to check but don?t think your electrical inspector isn?t going to notice even if he doesn?t say anything. Most of the time he will mention it to the building inspector and allow him and the municipality decide.

Exactly.

Which brings the OP back to the E-mon D-mon submetering solution;
SUBMETERS
You can spend under $400 on one, or get one with more features that will calculate your energy cost -you input the rate.

2 Hour fire separation is a big deal, IIRC you need a parapet wall extending a few feet above the roof line - if it's an attached garage. My state's rule; WAC 296-46b-230, 001(2) refers to local building codes, and NEC 100 'Building'.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Exactly.

Which brings the OP back to the E-mon D-mon submetering solution;
SUBMETERS
You can spend under $400 on one, or get one with more features that will calculate your energy cost -you input the rate.

2 Hour fire separation is a big deal, IIRC you need a parapet wall extending a few feet above the roof line - if it's an attached garage. My state's rule; WAC 296-46b-230, 001(2) refers to local building codes, and NEC 100 'Building'.


Question is are they legal for sale of electrical energy? Is selling or reselling energy legal? Your state division of weights and measures likely wants to be involved if you are selling any measured quantity of any kind of standard unit of any kind. Keeping track of where your own energy use goes is a different issue. Also are they legal for the purpose of separating one entity expense from another from one utility bill.
 

btharmy

Senior Member
Location
Indiana
I have a 100a meter on my house and another 100a meter on my work shop. Each has its own service drop from different poles. The buildings are sepatated by a 2 car detatched garage.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
It is a problem as far as the OPs question.

What I meant by not a problem was that it changes installation requirements for doing what OP wants to do. It does not make it impossible to do.

The OP can't have more than one service to the building, unless he has different phases, frequency, voltage or something like that from each service. He can have multiple disconnects for one service, but they must be grouped together.

My opinion - not a problem. Owner may think it is a problem if it involves extra work he was not expecting.
 

Finite10

Senior Member
Location
Great NW
Need to know use

Need to know use

Question is are they legal for sale of electrical energy? Is selling or reselling energy legal? Your state division of weights and measures likely wants to be involved if you are selling any measured quantity of any kind of standard unit of any kind. Keeping track of where your own energy use goes is a different issue. Also are they legal for the purpose of separating one entity expense from another from one utility bill.

They're sub-meters, for tracking energy use, demand, LEED buildings. Part-time's friend would have to get the POCO's meter to have the POCO sell power. For his friend - we don't know the use. But if he wants to break-out how much power his table saws use, (or maybe how much heat his 'un-employed brother' uses?) -he could track the energy cost.

The OP states that the garage is attached. A 2 hour fire separation is expensive, which makes a second service still more expensive. It depends on his use. Does he need more power and doesn't want to disturb the area where the existing service is ... we'd need to know more info on use.
 
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