Owner doesn't want permits

[Sierrasparky]

We can tel all the horible stories in the world and that just will not convince the customer. Most will take the chance. We all are destine to take the risk. It is impressed upon us all day long. Interest rates on Mortages, Credit cards etc.

It is most difficult to convince a homeowner that they need to obtain a permits on minor work or even at times major work when the inspector just does a walk through, does not ask to remove a outlet cover, does not ask to remove a panel cover, does not look under the home where the wire was fished. Most if not all homeowners feel that the permit process is for the ultimate collection of taxes. The permit process itself may be not for profit but in the end when it cost you higher property taxes then I can see the issue.

When someone repairs a deck and is charged a permit fee then to have taxes increased by 300.00 dollars for life for a 1500.00 repair that is exessive.

As I said a smart and prudent person would just demand that the project be done to all codes and take teir chances with the inspector. I say this only because I see it all the time. I walk from way to many projects because the homeowner does not want permits. I don't want the liabilty and walk. There is always someone around the bend who will work.

I have one more scenario I have turned down no less that 15 tankless whole house hot water heaters over the past several years. Each and everyone of them eventually got installed by other licensed electricians. Some were done with permits some not. Each and everyone of them had only a 100 amp service. Each of them needed a service pf at least 150 amps according to a load calc or the manufactures requirement. Each and every one of the units installed have had issues. Several of the homes the EC just added a bigger breaker to the existing feeder because the main was tripping. Whats the point.
Hey I just needed to vent this one....

 

[Fulthrotl]

So, Im working on creating / modifying a home improvement contract, specifically for california. There is a section pertaining to permits, and it spells out who is responsible for paying for them, pulling them, etc. I have done a million jobs where a permit was required, but the owner didn't want one. Would it be wise to put a signature line in the contract acknowledging the requirement but refusing?

a medical office i visited for treatment was undergoing a remodel.
no permits, bathroom being moved, slab cut, plumbing moved,
t bar ceiling being replaced with hard lid
(think about what that means to a sparky)

total bootleg.

as i knew the building owner, and principal in the medical concern personally,
i warned him about the risk he was taking, especially as the
***building next door***
was being built, and city inspectors were over there continuously.

yada, yada, yada.... he blew it off, and spent three MONTHS doing this thing,
without getting caught.... until one day, one of the drywall finishers, who spoke
no english, was washing out his taping tools with a hose IN THE GUTTER,
and the inspector came over from the next building and told him he couldn't
do that, and the guy told the inspector to shove it, in broken english.

the resulting "code enforcement exercise" performed on the property owner
cost him about $140,000 he didn't intend to spend, with almost $40k of that
being bringing the electrical up to code.

all the can lights he put in the ceiling were incandescent, and that tipped the
remodeled load over the original permitted load, bring the entire structure
into question for title 24 compliance.... glazing, insulation, everything.....

not to mention handicapped access.....

it went on, and on.....

ended up with a complete building survey, engineered electrical drawings,
a second subpanel tapped off the main buss, with the 10' feeder and tap rule,
4 dozen incandescent can lights being ripped out, and replaced, all the romex
used to wire them being replaced.....

my experience has been, that property owners who don't want to pull
permits won't do so, and nothing i've ever said has made a difference.

did a kitchen remodel, and the homeowner didn't want to permit it, and
i told him that the trash bin he'd just had delivered would have an inspector
driving by, as the trash disposal company provided a list of all addresses getting
a dump bin to the local building department, for enforcement purposes.....

yada, yada, yada....... took 90 minutes for the inspector to show up, after the
bin hit the pavement..... i knew who worked that area, so i was expecting him...
we chatted and said hello, i explained the homeowner was going to be pulling
the permits later on today, right before the homeowner showed up....

much to his surprise, the homeowner found the inspector in the middle of
the demoed kitchen, making notes.... and promptly went down to the
building department, and paid the fees......

.... with penalties.....

most people don't learn by experience, either theirs or others. :-/

a written agreement or acknowledgement between you and anyone
not to pull permits sounds like a very, very, very bad idea to me.


randy

 

[Sierrasparky]

Back to the OP's question to add something to his contractI would say that that would be illegal and the Contractors board would frown on it and you will get into trouble if the CSLB ever found out.

 

[gadfly56]

Starting Work Without Permits

Starting Work Without Permits

We won't do work without permits.

On the other hand, sometimes the work is time critical for the client. In that case, we have a standard letter which makes it clear that a) the work you've contracted us to do requires permits b) you explicitly authorize us to start work without completing the permit process beforehand c) YOU WILL be responsible for any and all fines that come down to you and us. Sign here please. And oh by the way, if the permit review process generates any additional installation requirements, there WILL be a change order for that, too.

 

[Strife]

Well, here's another gem, to the pulling permits, aka pulling teeth. Or another cost I have to consider next time I pull a permit.
Just been informed today by a GC that "our permit application" was not accepted by the city because my liability expires in 14 days.
Excuse me? Isn't that similar to getting a ticket because my driver license is too close to expiration?
And please, don't even try to defend this action with some cockamania logic.
Here's another "expletive" trip to the city, and extra time for me to contact my insurance and pay them over the phone (was gonna send the renewal payment today or tomorrow) and get an updated certificate.
Now I have to consider also what will they say when they notice that the new certificate is good from 05/18/2011 through 05/18/2012.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Your town requires Liability insurance? I have it but I don't have to.

 

[Electric-Light]

Your town requires Liability insurance? I have it but I don't have to.

The licensing board here requires a bond and insurance from every licensed contractor. Why wouldn't they? There are some states that don't require auto liability insurance. I think its equally scary.

Something small can turn into a huge liability. Like, if you somehow damage a fuel tank on a trencher that you left behind over night and discovered next morning that you leaked 50 gallons of diesel, who do you think pays for environmental clean up without insurance?

 

[busman]

Just some of my perspective on the hassle involved with pulling a permit. I do most of my work in a fairly large urban county. The actual driving distance to the permit office is 28 miles according to Google Maps. The driving time (with no traffic) is 43 minutes. The fastest I have ever got thru the 4 stations (check-in, permit data entry, cashier and check-out) is about 15 minutes. I can take an hour or more at busy times. Minimum permit cost is $85. So let's say we take the standard Govt mileage rate and pay me $60 for my time and then add that up:

90 minutes driving = $90
15 minutes to fill out the form = $15
30 minutes to get the permit = $30
permit cost = $85
mileage (56 miles at 0.50 per mile) = $28
60 minutes (minimum) to meet the inspector = $60

Permit cost (bare minimum) $308

No wonder it's hard to compete with a trunk-slammer.

Mark

 

[Sierrasparky]

That's my point all along.
You just cannot compete with a trunk slammer here in Ca. A trunk slammer can perform 499.00 of work and materials on any one job so as it is not a portion of a larger job. The trunk slammer can obviously do quite a bit of work without the would otherwise require a permit. As the law goes there is nothing on the books I can find that makes it the trunk slammers responsibility to not do the work without a permit. If a licensed person does the work without a permit it is very clear.

 

[satcom]

That's my point all along.
You just cannot compete with a trunk slammer here in Ca. A trunk slammer can perform 499.00 of work and materials on any one job so as it is not a portion of a larger job. The trunk slammer can obviously do quite a bit of work without the would otherwise require a permit. As the law goes there is nothing on the books I can find that makes it the trunk slammers responsibility to not do the work without a permit. If a licensed person does the work without a permit it is very clear.

We are not in business to compete with trunk slammers, It sounds like all the CA contractors have to join forces and get the board to address your serious concerns, if the board fails to act then as a group you may find legal action may produce better results in making the licensed contractors system a fair and balanced law, not a one sided law that favors one group or another, trying to fight a board that seems to be out of touch with a balanced scale of justice needs to be reminded they are there to serve and rule for the public good.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Well I can tell you that getting the contractors board to do anything you suggest is highly unlikely. The board is not going to relax the rules for the contractor just so they can compete fairly. on the otherside they don't have the funds to combat the unlicensed activity. For the contractor there is also no way to correct this in a legal manner as there is no way to fund such an effort. There is just not enough contractors that feel this way yet and when they finally realize the need, they will not have the money or the will to go forward.

 

[satcom]

Well I can tell you that getting the contractors board to do anything you suggest is highly unlikely. The board is not going to relax the rules for the contractor just so they can compete fairly. on the otherside they don't have the funds to combat the unlicensed activity. For the contractor there is also no way to correct this in a legal manner as there is no way to fund such an effort. There is just not enough contractors that feel this way yet and when they finally realize the need, they will not have the money or the will to go forward.

Your not asking them to relax any rules so you can compete, they have to change the existing laws that allow the insane practice of allowing a dollar amount to permit some groups to do work while holding another group to to laws that require a license to do the same work, you do not need to be a law expert to see the treatment is not balanced.

But without all the independent contractors banding together and challenging the existing laws, you can just accept the existing treatment.

I can remember many years ago in many states the independent contractors helped introduce many of the laws that are still in practice to this day, you guys can either get involved and change things or learn to accept the treatment your getting.

 

[Electric-Light]

Mark

Why do you assume your time is worth the same hourly skilled labor rate when you're doing tasks a minimum wage person can do? It is only so when you just have A LOT of projects piling up on your desk and your phone is ringing off the hook and every minute you spend is cutting back on time you can spend doing electrical work.

 

[Sierrasparky]

This is partially true. But In my town only the owner or a officer can sign for the permit. That person needs to be at the counter when the permit is issued.

But if you have a one man operation then you really need to charge the same.

 

[B W E]

And the permit fees? You mean to tell me I install 50 outlets and is only $60.00 fees when is said and done?
Down here there's a permit fee of around 80-150 depending of the city PLUS give or take 2-3% of the work value (some cities figure it per work value, some figure it per points, but in the end is around that percentage). I've had several permits pulled recently with my work being 500-1200 dollars and the permits were all over 150 some close to 200.
Then what about the time?
3-4 hrs to fill out the permit, do the drawings, find the owner to sign and notarize the permit application, go to the city and submit the application.
1-2 hrs to pick up the permit.
2-3 hrs for the rough inspection (if I'm lucky and the inspector gives me that nice of window to meet him)
Another 2-3 hrs for the final inspection (again, if I'm lucky and the inspector is nice enough to give me that window). And even if you get a nice window it still kills your day as usually it's "between 9 and 11 or between 1 and 3".
Forget the time (I guess we contractors make way too much money so we don't need to get paid for our time), with price of gas nowadays it cost over $100 just in gas to make all those trips I just mentioned.

Holy CRAP!! The last two I pulled, one in cowboy's office an one in a neighboring city were $76, and $73, one for a change out, one for an upgrade to 200 amp / relocation.. Took me about 9 minutes to fill out the paperwork and be back in my van with the inspection card and receipt. The downside is knowing that I can't find out WHEN the inspection will be until 7:30-8:00 the day of, and then you get a 2 hour window. It's the nature of the beast, I know. But the beast sucks. Fortunately Simi has some pretty cool inspectors.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Holy CRAP!! The last two I pulled, one in cowboy's office an one in a neighboring city were $76, and $73, one for a change out, one for an upgrade to 200 amp / relocation.. Took me about 9 minutes to fill out the paperwork and be back in my van with the inspection card and receipt. The downside is knowing that I can't find out WHEN the inspection will be until 7:30-8:00 the day of, and then you get a 2 hour window. It's the nature of the beast, I know. But the beast sucks. Fortunately Simi has some pretty cool inspectors.

Well your now my new bestest friend. : )

Actually it's 7:00-8:00. The reason for the day of is that we don't see our calls until the day of so we don't know what we have. You can't make an 8:00 appointment at one end of the valley and then have another guy want 8:15 at the other end, so you kind of set up your day so that you work your way across the valley. Now the real kicker, we're just the indians, I can't tell you how many times we've sat in this office for an hour, layed out our day, told people when we would be there and then the chiefs roll in at 8:00 and say that we're having a meeting. And guess what that does to your whole day.

Also there seems to be a newer trend that many of us old timers aren't used to, some guy will call and ask where we're coming you tell them that they'll be first call out the door "oh I won't be there until 9:00 or so." 9:00? We were always on site by 7:00. The other fun one is when they call the office at 11:00 and want to know when we'll be there.:roll:

There's also a reason we carry door hangers in our car that basically say "we were here and you weren't". It kind of works both ways.

 

[kwired]

The licensing board here requires a bond and insurance from every licensed contractor. Why wouldn't they? There are some states that don't require auto liability insurance. I think its equally scary.

Something small can turn into a huge liability. Like, if you somehow damage a fuel tank on a trencher that you left behind over night and discovered next morning that you leaked 50 gallons of diesel, who do you think pays for environmental clean up without insurance?

What kind of trencher do you have that holds 50+ gallons of fuel?

 

[Fulthrotl]

What kind of trencher do you have that holds 50+ gallons of fuel?

sounds like a healthy bucket wheel to me....

'sides... if you have a diesel leak in the middle of the night, and you
have a backhoe, "spill abatement" is just a few bucketfuls away....


*did i say that out loud?*

 

[kwired]

sounds like a healthy bucket wheel to me....

'sides... if you have a diesel leak in the middle of the night, and you
have a backhoe, "spill abatement" is just a few bucketfuls away....


*did i say that out loud?*

With the price of fuel, that leak in the middle of night probably went into someones portable can(s) and not on the ground. It is getting close to the point that it is worth figuring out how to recover and clean a spill so that the fuel can still be used not just recovered and disposed.

 

[readydave8]

pulling permit may cause delay

pulling permit may cause delay

I went to Baldwin, Georgia city hall today to pull a permit. They are only accepting permit applications 2-3:00, Tues & Thurs, must make appointment ahead of time, 4 appointments per hour (8 permits per week). This includes all construction, not just electrical. So I have to wait now until Tuesday 2:45 to start work.