Everyone is an electrician

[ITO]

In Texas TDLR (http://www.license.state.tx.us/) aggressively pursues unlicensed trade work and fines the crapola out of them. Of course home owners are excluded from this but there has been proposed legislation to ban home owners from doing their own electric work. I am adamantly opposed to such legislation, because I feel a man had the right to be an idiot in his own home.

However, when I find shoddy work and know who did it I turn them in to TDLR, and they do "sweeps" and investigations and post on their website who they caught and what they got. I think it is a pretty nice revenue stream for them.

Also note in Texas you need a Master Electricians license AND a contracting license to do do any electrical contracting here, so just having a masters (without a contracting license) and doing some side work is illegal and comes with a $2,500 fine. I am good with this too, because getting that contractors license requires you obtain insurance, DBA and pay taxes which evens the playing field for the moonlighters.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

I think some of the problem is the permit process. I don't know exactly how to fix it. In my county it is a tedious expensive process. You have to submit drawings and list contracts and they are not quick to approve. If it could somehow be a lot easier and cheaper to permits.... I don't know. Maybe it would help

 

[renosteinke]

"Safety" Talk about a 'blank check' used by everyone with an ulterior motive. While 'patriotism' may be the last refuge of the scoundrel, 'safety' isn't far behind.

IMO, it is absolutely improper for any governmental function to operate to further the commercial interests of one citizen over another. I'll also append that without private property, there are no rights.

The various hurdles and delays described by others in this thread are real eye-openers. Such governmental behaviour can only undercut respect for the law, foster tyranny, and abet anarchy. When the government can define the house I sell - it isn't much of a step for the government to limit what I can buy. I can't speak for others ... but that's not the country I grew up in.

Is it any accident that the 'developing' areas, even in this economy, are away from the worst of the governmental excesses?

I wonder if we have greatly exceeded the limits of propriety in the scope of our codes, regulations, and permits.

 

[ITO]

You think that is bad, the feel good liberals and other riff raff here locally are trying to pass a city ordinance that would MANDATE updating your house to an energy efficiency standard (that they set and can arbitrarily change) before the house can be bought or sold. Although I am sure there will be vouchers for the politically connected.

 

[satcom]

"Safety" Talk about a 'blank check' used by everyone with an ulterior motive. While 'patriotism' may be the last refuge of the scoundrel, 'safety' isn't far behind.

IMO, it is absolutely improper for any governmental function to operate to further the commercial interests of one citizen over another. I'll also append that without private property, there are no rights.

The various hurdles and delays described by others in this thread are real eye-openers. Such governmental behaviour can only undercut respect for the law, foster tyranny, and abet anarchy. When the government can define the house I sell - it isn't much of a step for the government to limit what I can buy. I can't speak for others ... but that's not the country I grew up in.

Is it any accident that the 'developing' areas, even in this economy, are away from the worst of the governmental excesses?

I wonder if we have greatly exceeded the limits of propriety in the scope of our codes, regulations, and permits.

I think the real problem is not the goverment or how they operate the enforcement of permits and inspections, it is the pure lack of knowledge and poor planning of some of the contractors.

Some contractors just don't understand why the city requires permits and inspections, their knowledge of the inspection system is it's a government department that raises revenues for the city by requiring permits and inspections

The fact is, the inspection departments in every city exist for the beneifit of every property owner.

Many years ago the insurance underwriters decided to rate every city, town in the country to establish a rating system for insurance cost standards, the insurance industry rates a city on things like the number of fire houses and their distance from an insures property, does a city have fire hydrants, paid or volunteer fire companies and many other standards including building construction.

In turn for good insurance rates and ratings, cities (Government) operate inspection departments.

The time it takes and the money for a plan review will differ from one city to another but remember the money that fuels that review comes the permit fees NOT from the city tax payer.

Learn about your city construction department and on your next visit you may have a better feeling

this land of ours is a great place ask any city cab driver.

 

[renosteinke]

What do they call it when you can hold two contradictory thoughts in your mind? Genius? Or insanity?

Well, this 'no permit' thing has me thinking contradictory thoughts. I've already spoken as to the contractor / government side .... now for the 'point of the spear' perspective:

Not too long ago I took advantage of the 'mortgage crisis' and bought myself a house. Not too bad, not too old. Indeed, there were only three areas of the house that looked like they needed some serious work.

Guess what? These three areas are also the only changes made to the house over time - and all three were done without permits. In all three, the problems arose because of improper materials, and the failure to pay attention to the little details. I'm sure they looked nice when freshly done, and they 'worked,' but they sure didn't last.

Likewise, the house has one area that was repaired. While ordinary 'wear and tear' caused the problem, the repair is inadequate and needs redoing.

Forget the bureaucratic requirements- these jobs all were done improperly, incompletely, by untrained or uncaring parties. Such seems to be a constant in the 'underground' construction world. Maybe real tradesmen need to coin their own slogan: You probably CAN'T do it, and you NEED our help!

As a contractor, you need to ask yourself: do you want to be associated with such a job? Do you feel lucky?

 

[satcom]

What do they call it when you can hold two contradictory thoughts in your mind? Genius? Or insanity?

Well, this 'no permit' thing has me thinking contradictory thoughts. I've already spoken as to the contractor / government side .... now for the 'point of the spear' perspective:

Not too long ago I took advantage of the 'mortgage crisis' and bought myself a house. Not too bad, not too old. Indeed, there were only three areas of the house that looked like they needed some serious work.

Guess what? These three areas are also the only changes made to the house over time - and all three were done without permits. In all three, the problems arose because of improper materials, and the failure to pay attention to the little details. I'm sure they looked nice when freshly done,
and they 'worked,' but they sure didn't last.
Likewise, the house has one area that was repaired. While ordinary 'wear and tear' caused the problem, the repair is inadequate and needs redoing.

Forget the bureaucratic requirements- these jobs all were done improperly, incompletely, by untrained or uncaring parties. Such seems to be a constant in the 'underground' construction world. Maybe real tradesmen need to coin their own slogan: You probably CAN'T do it, and you NEED our help!
As a contractor, you need to ask yourself: do you want to be associated with such a job? Do you feel lucky?

You have a good point, everyone complains about permits, and inspection costs, but they never look at the insane side, of contractors working without permits, or inspections leaving behind a trail of trash work preformed on the homeowners largest life investment their home.

Over the years, we ran across many illegal jobs that cost the owners plenty, these are the same people who complain about the cost of permits and legal contractors, but will let some Benny remove supporting walls, install plumbing without vents, install zip wire in walls of kitchen remodels, and do less then approved building practices.

 

[ELECTRICDON]

This is what we have to deal with in our area (MODERATOR'S NOTE: I removed the link to a Craigslist posting, since we don't allow them to be discussed.)
Wow, 2yr apprentice can wire just about anything.

 

[renosteinke]

Remember "Cool Hand Luke?" It had a great line, spoken by Rod Steiger:

"What we have here is a failure to communicate."

I'll grant everyone that their work is better than that of the handyman, apprentice, or DIY. I'll even grant that we're worth our rates. But -

HOW ARE WE GETTING THAT ACROSS TO INTENDED CUSTOMERS?

That's the challenge. Joe Homeowner only sees us as 'expensive' if he can't see what makes us better.

 

[Strife]

Apparently you never been on the other end. I will take a wild guess that you work for whatever "fill in the blanks" bureaucracy.
I'm all for permits, and I'm well aware why they are required. The problems are these:
1: Why can't we submit a permit online? and print it online? Why do I have to drive for couple hrs just to drop a permit and then couple hrs more to pick it up?
I know what you'll say next:"well you need drawings". Sure. Why can't the city get a printer and charge me couple bucks a page. Sure as hell is cheaper than driving around for 4 hrs.
And I know what you'll say next also: "well you need a notarized signature on the application". Why can't I just use a PIN I establish with the AHJ? And have the application signature separate mine from the owner (so I can use my PIN online and have the owner drop his signature).
2: My WC expires in February, my liability in May, my license/occupational license in August/September. I know my carrier sends them hard copies every time, but WITHOUT FAIL "they" always claim "they" don't have it.
3: Why do I even need drawings for adding a general purpose receptacle? It doesn't change load calculations and there's no limit on how many general purpose receptacles you put on a circuit.
4: I know it takes time to do inspections, therefore it costs money, but no matter what logic you use it's VERY HARD for anyone to swallow a $100.00 permit fees (never seen less than this down here) for a $150.00 job. And that's not including time to cover #1, 2, and 3 plus the inspection times.
5: Furthermore to #4, why do I need inspections on a $150.00 job? Before you jump out of your chair consider this. An engineer can sign off an inspection(on an honor system), why can't I? I have a master license, I can do drawings (to a certain extent), my liability insurance is my biggest deterrent in doing the wrong work (and not inspections). There's thousand way to hide things from inspectors, not to mention how much can they really inspect in 5 minutes most inspectors spend on a job under 1K?
6: Planning? Down here we have about 30 cities in one county alone. As much as I'd like to drop 10 permits at the same time in one location it's not gonna happen. We have cities that don't even have building departments per say (they use other cities departments), but sure as hell you have to send them an insurance certificate with THAT city name on it. Never mind that I'm already registered in Weston, I have to register with city of Southwest Ranches, even though Southwest Ranches uses the Weston building department.
And I can go on to about 20 points, but I'll stop here.

I think the real problem is not the goverment or how they operate the enforcement of permits and inspections, it is the pure lack of knowledge and poor planning of some of the contractors.

Some contractors just don't understand why the city requires permits and inspections, their knowledge of the inspection system is it's a government department that raises revenues for the city by requiring permits and inspections

The fact is, the inspection departments in every city exist for the beneifit of every property owner.

Many years ago the insurance underwriters decided to rate every city, town in the country to establish a rating system for insurance cost standards, the insurance industry rates a city on things like the number of fire houses and their distance from an insures property, does a city have fire hydrants, paid or volunteer fire companies and many other standards including building construction.

In turn for good insurance rates and ratings, cities (Government) operate inspection departments.

The time it takes and the money for a plan review will differ from one city to another but remember the money that fuels that review comes the permit fees NOT from the city tax payer.

Learn about your city construction department and on your next visit you may have a better feeling

this land of ours is a great place ask any city cab driver.

 

[John120/240]

Remember "Cool Hand Luke?" It had a great line, spoken by Rod Steiger:

"What we have here is a failure to communicate."

I'll grant everyone that their work is better than that of the handyman, apprentice, or DIY. I'll even grant that we're worth our rates. But -

HOW ARE WE GETTING THAT ACROSS TO INTENDED CUSTOMERS?

That's the challenge. Joe Homeowner only sees us as 'expensive' if he can't see what makes us better.

I do believe that it was Strother Martin in Cool Hand Luke. A very good movie

 

[cowboyjwc]

Apparently you never been on the other end. I will take a wild guess that you work for whatever "fill in the blanks" bureaucracy.
I'm all for permits, and I'm well aware why they are required. The problems are these:
1: Why can't we submit a permit online? and print it online? Why do I have to drive for couple hrs just to drop a permit and then couple hrs more to pick it up?
I know what you'll say next:"well you need drawings". Sure. Why can't the city get a printer and charge me couple bucks a page. Sure as hell is cheaper than driving around for 4 hrs.
And I know what you'll say next also: "well you need a notarized signature on the application". Why can't I just use a PIN I establish with the AHJ? And have the application signature separate mine from the owner (so I can use my PIN online and have the owner drop his signature).
2: My WC expires in February, my liability in May, my license/occupational license in August/September. I know my carrier sends them hard copies every time, but WITHOUT FAIL "they" always claim "they" don't have it.
3: Why do I even need drawings for adding a general purpose receptacle? It doesn't change load calculations and there's no limit on how many general purpose receptacles you put on a circuit.
4: I know it takes time to do inspections, therefore it costs money, but no matter what logic you use it's VERY HARD for anyone to swallow a $100.00 permit fees (never seen less than this down here) for a $150.00 job. And that's not including time to cover #1, 2, and 3 plus the inspection times.
5: Furthermore to #4, why do I need inspections on a $150.00 job? Before you jump out of your chair consider this. An engineer can sign off an inspection(on an honor system), why can't I? I have a master license, I can do drawings (to a certain extent), my liability insurance is my biggest deterrent in doing the wrong work (and not inspections). There's thousand way to hide things from inspectors, not to mention how much can they really inspect in 5 minutes most inspectors spend on a job under 1K?
6: Planning? Down here we have about 30 cities in one county alone. As much as I'd like to drop 10 permits at the same time in one location it's not gonna happen. We have cities that don't even have building departments per say (they use other cities departments), but sure as hell you have to send them an insurance certificate with THAT city name on it. Never mind that I'm already registered in Weston, I have to register with city of Southwest Ranches, even though Southwest Ranches uses the Weston building department.
And I can go on to about 20 points, but I'll stop here.

So what you're saying is that you would like us to do all of your paper work so that you can spend more time out there making money?

So if you have to drive a couple of hours to get a permit, then can I assume that the inspector also has to drive a couple of hours to do the inspection? Why don't you do jobs closer to the office so he doesn't have to drive as far?

Why don't we let you guys do permits online? We can't get you to put everything you're doing on the plans you bring in most of the time so when you do it online and we show up and you didn't include everything, that turns into a wasted trip for us and another permit issueance fee for you. Many contractors that come into the office can't fill out the application with out the help of the permit techs, so how are you gonna do it at home?

 

[billsnuff]

you got it

you got it